The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

Can you allow a break for ONE specific thread on ONE specific day? (that was the context I was talking about)

Why, JW?

tolerance

If that tolerance was something that was returned in kind, JW, you just might have a case. But it is so terribly abused by America and Americans.

And if anything is moot, that certainly is, wouldn't you say?

Good post Robert, but I think it over simplifies the matter.
America changed dramatically with ww11 and may never see a return to an isolationist mentality.
As misguided as America's policies may appear, there is a reason for them. It is a complete fabrication to say that America supports the subjugation of other peoples, America's stance has always been to support stability.
America and Japan know first hand the horror of nuclear war. The use of the a-bomb and the subsequent cold war changed the world, likely, forever.
Perhaps America's policies are misguided, whose to say? However, it is untruthful to paint a picture of some uncaring beast that cares nothing for the suffering of other peoples. That is simply not the case.
America has felt a great responsibility for the prevention of any further nuclear conflict, and our policies reflect this concern.
Sure, we could have sat back and continued the manufacture of nuclear weapons, ensuring that we at least could destroy the world. But that has never been an attractive option from anyone's view.
It is easy to sit back and point the finger at America without looking at the bigger picture. I'll be the first to admit, America has committed many acts that I am not proud of, but the motive has never been the evil many would like to portray.
Remember, we didn't invent this ****, war, but we did invent the most horrible weapon yet known and we can't take it back.
War , oppression, genocide, murder, will continue like it always has, with or without America. We bear no responsibility for that.
Regardless of what you might wish to believe, our leaders are not the callous war lords they are often portrayed. We are the only country to ever inflict the horror of nuclear war on another, don't think we don't know that.

America has not looted Japan nor Germany, neither have we looted South Korea or the middle east.
Hate-mongers the world over foster that mentality for their own ends.
We may not be very good at it, but we really are trying to give the world a better life.

then where did we go wrong?

maybe when we decided that using "private contractors" was the way to wage war...

Where we went wrong was with the Dubya Dubya Two generation. I'm not blaming them, but rather the mind set of a "good war" fought to better the lot of mankind. Ever since, politicians have been able to manipulate a self-image of the good guys in white hats, making the world safe for democracy.

I don't think there is any specific answer to that question.
Maybe our biggest mistake was believing the rest of the world would understand our sense of responsibility and cooperate. That was probably an arrogant and naive method of procedure.
One thing is pretty certain, all the hate mongering only serves the interests of those that wish to take advantage.

I'll buy that.

currently dealing with that generation on a coupla other levels where entrenched thinking is causing difficulties...

what of the fear mongering?

There is very pervasive mentality among Americans to respect authority, despite having fought history's biggest war against authoritarian regimes. On September 11th, 2001, i tuned into the news coverage on my computer at work. At one point, Bush began to speak. I was talking at that moment. The Boss said: "Shhh . . . the President is speaking." He then actually clasped his hands in front of himself, closed his eyes and lowered his head. I had missed my lunch, so i left to go get some, rather than tell him what i thought of that.

Bush just barely managed to steal the 2000 election--but in 2004, he was "a war president." Works a treat.

I think you're quite right here, of course things have grown increasingly complex as a result of this.

IMO, we failed to realize that every man chooses his own master, and we all must have one. Our own willingness to choose wealth and a better standard of living blinded us to the fact that not everyone wishes that master.

That is a truly bizarre statement when you think about it. I didn't invent guns, so if I shoot your family I bear no responsibility? I'm sure I must have taken that out of context.

I don't think you can discount callousness (or something related) when you consider the civilian death toll in Iraq - how often do you see a count of that in mainstream news? But the US military death toll is widely known.

The US isn't the borg acting with one (evil) mind. But events like the one that started this thread do raise the question of why certain people in certain positions made certain decisions. It was a clear then as it is now that the Iraq invasion was irrelevant to the 'war on terror'. The justifications at the time were preposterous and transparent to many.

I don't have an issue with marking the anniversary, but I have to agree with many posters that the wafts of apparent denial are a little hard to take. After ten years you would think there would be some more 20/20 hindsight - I agree with Olgs that for the most part US A2Kers have less visceral reactions to the terror attacks, but the media (ours too) don't.

Yeah, that ain't so great neither.
I'd much rather see a world where we are honest with each other, but I ain't holding my breath.

You really are a cornucopia of propaganda bites, Wayne.

I was going to quote the pieces of propaganda in your long post, but as I got going, I realized they all are variations of the same theme that has been going on for a couple of centuries.

Nevertheless, the vast majority are unsupported by the historical record. Back to those shortly.

Context is important, we have no way of knowing what the world would be like without America. It's safe to say, though, that wars and killing, oppression and genocide would have gone right on without us. Who can say whether America has prevented worse bloodshed or not. That was the burden that began with the decision to use the bomb on Japan.

I do agree with you though, it is obvious that America's leaders have been dishonest in their relations with the people. Perhaps they don't trust us to make the decisions they wish us to make.
The truth is, Americans are no less under the thumb of their government than any subject of a third world dictator. Our standard of living is the vodka our leaders provide in order to keep us in line.

I don't think you understand what propaganda is, I never said anything other than the truth of how things are. You said yourself, it's been going on for a couple of centuries. I know that I am a slave to my standard of living, no propaganda there. Maybe you can, for once, drop your pose long enough to listen.

That right there shows I do and you haven't, Wayne.



I'm more than willing to stay in for the duration. Are you up for that?

The vote for this thread is up to 31, JW.

I'm kinda of the opinion that it has garnered that number because there have been a large number of people who have turned it away from an experience that would make sane people gag to one where the real issues are actually seeing some print.

But, I'm certainly open to others views on what 31 means.

more than 30 different people have posted here.