33
   

The horror of Sept. 11th, 2001

 
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 05:50 am
@Builder,
It can be very frustrating when people miss the point and dwell on irrelevancies. Unfortunately there are quite a few on A2K that do that.
Builder
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 05:55 am
@izzythepush,
Ahh, but if we were all the same, Izzy, what a boring place this would be.

Viva la difference.
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  10  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 06:36 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

Eorl wrote:

There's a clear presumption here that "we" are "good" and "they" are "evil", so still plenty more to be learned.


Okay. Let someone attack and kill 3000 of your own people, then come back and tell us how good they are. I suspect you will be somewhat less confused.


I let that wait out of respect for WJW as much as for the victims.

For a start, my list of nationalities above demonstrates that what you assume was 3000 of "your" people includes some of what you refer to as "my" people. In fact, each American death pains me as much as each Australian one does, same goes for each Christian, Muslim, or even politician. I think the cheating lying banker deserved to die on that day exactly as much as the brave firemen, (ie not at all) If that makes me a traitor by your value system, so be it. I prefer the term humanist, and I think patriotism, nationalism and religion are various forms of bigotry that sit at the very heart of all of this. I have seen several in this thread openly state that human beings of their own brand are of a higher value than others and frankly I find that appauling, for all its common acceptance. Confused? Not so much.
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 07:23 am
@izzythepush,
Blame Builder and my poor eyesight. His blunder of 77 got stuck in my head and the point was that it was an incorrect number, and I made the point gently. You however izzy, provided the proof that some asswipe (in this case, you), would come along and make sarcastic comments in making corrections.
msolga
 
  4  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 08:31 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
No apology necessary. You were reacting to the callousness of a few posters. Yesterday was the anniversary of the deaths of innocent victims.

So, wandel ....
..... it was perfectly OK to call various posters : "a hypocrite", "a cretin", "cockroaches" which needed to be "squashed", a "left-wing slug", a "crimped sole miscreant" .... because of the "callousness of a few posters"?

Right.
I see.
Neutral
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:02 am
@Ticomaya,
Quote:
Ms O: We believed the arguments for invasion were a lie.


Quote:
Tico: You were wrong.


No, Arnuld, you are wrong. Two sets of war crimes followed by all the attendant war crimes.

The anniversary date is a perfect time to remember that 2800 doesn't come close to the century of millions slaughtered, not at the hands of a band on non-descript terrorists, but by a country that makes frequent spoutings of its inherent goodness and civility.

Quote:
Living Americans care ...


Way too many just care about hiding the war crimes of their country and supporting the few who make obscene profits off the lives of millions of innocents. Those aren't "living" Americans, Tico; that's not what life is about - murdering and plundering.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:03 am
@Eorl,
Eorl wrote:

I think patriotism, nationalism and religion are various forms of bigotry that sit at the very heart of all of this.
Heartly agreed!
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:13 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
but his/her utterly mendacious reply


There was nothing mendacious about Manored's post, Finn and you know it. Your reply, such as it was, tells us all that.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The "debate" around this subject (By Americans) has, unfortunately driven home the point for me that, irrespective of our political leanings, we are not all proud and loving Americans.


A "proud and loving American", you are not, Finn. A loving person doesn't ignore the crimes of their country, ignore the murder, rape and torture just because it bolsters your bottom line. That's nothing more than the worst sort of criminal preying on the neighborhood and that's something Finn is dead set against.

Why the hypocrisy when the situation is the same vis a vis the US and the world?
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:19 am
@Eorl,
Eorl wrote:
I prefer the term humanist, and I think patriotism, nationalism and religion are various forms of bigotry that sit at the very heart of all of this.


I agree. I personally believe that most wars are waged thru an appeal to emotion. If a government wants the support of most citizens in a war action, appealing to their emotions is the most effective way.

Still, if you are attacked on your own soil, you would want your government to respond.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:27 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
the high esteem in which we hold the ANZUS treaty


The one that got you folks suckered into the war crimes in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. Why on earth would you hold anything so deeply immoral in high esteem, Hinge?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:34 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Still, if you are attacked on your own soil, you would want your government to respond.


Respond like a bunch of common criminals, JW. No sane person would want that. But sadly, we know that that's exactly what happened and still there's this huge, smothering blanket of silence from the purported "sane" ones.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 09:37 am
@Sturgis,
Like many great men, you blame others for your own actions. You typed out 70 times 7, not builder. An inability to provide proof of one's ridiculous assertions, and petty name calling are all marks of greatness. I always feel so terribly humble whenever I respond to one of your posts.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  6  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 02:46 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
I agree. I personally believe that most wars are waged thru an appeal to emotion. If a government wants the support of most citizens in a war action, appealing to their emotions is the most effective way.

Sadly in our case our government completely ignored what most citizens wanted in regard to the Iraq invasion - any appeal emotion fell as flat as the appeal to logic.

Quote:

Still, if you are attacked on your own soil, you would want your government to respond.

Intelligently, decisively, morally. We know that the invasion of Iraq was an unrelated sideshow that killed twice as many americans as the 911 attacks (not to mention hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civillians) and diluted all attempts to track the planners of the 911 attacks who were still in the Afghan highlands. Not to mention run on affects like the enormous increase it made to US debt, and the further trashing of the US reputation through renditions and Guantanamo, collateral damage and the dismissal of the pottery barn rule.

Still, at least some private firms made a 'killing' for a few years off the government purse. Sigh.
wandeljw
 
  6  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 03:29 pm
@hingehead,
The Iraq invasion was a total mistake, even as a strategy against terrorism. The result was a large increase in the number of anti-American terrorists.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 03:53 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
The Iraq invasion was a total mistake,


The Iraq invasion was a war crime, JW, a monstrous war crime, pure and simple.

Quote:

War of aggression

A war of aggression, sometimes also war of conquest, is a military conflict waged without the justification of self-defense usually for territorial gain and subjugation. The phrase is distinctly modern and diametrically opposed to the prior legal international standard of "might makes right", under the medieval and pre-historic beliefs of right of conquest. Since the Korean War of the early 1950s, waging such a war of aggression is a crime under the customary international law.

Wars without international legality (e.g. not out of self-defense nor sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council) can be considered wars of aggression;

The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which followed World War II, called the waging of aggressive war "essentially an evil thing...to initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression



Quote:
The result was a large increase in the number of anti-American terrorists.


It's always about the US, isn't it?

The "result" is always some absolutely insignificant thing when measured against the horrendous pain and suffering inflicted upon the other party.

This is so UNbelievable!

What the hell is wrong with you people? Is the conception of honesty so far outside your capabilities, so out of your ken?

Do y'all have any idea of what it is that you have done to Iraq? [and that's only counting since the War of Aggression started] The real horror of 9-11 is what it begat, what you fearful little children allowed to happen in your name.

wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 04:52 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
It's always about the US, isn't it?


Well, I was born in Germany. Should I make my posts about Germany instead? Their history is not very glamorous either.
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 05:03 pm
@wandeljw,
It doesn't matter one bit, not one iota, where you were born, JW. What matters is honesty, not red herrings.

You're taking this way too personally. The only part that is personal is your deception.

You aren't personally to blame for these war crimes but a 'good American' certainly isn't any better than a 'good German'. But in defense of those Germans, they had nowhere near the freedom to speak out against the evil.

Supposedly, all Americans do.
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 06:48 pm
@JTT,
Well, quite a few did, as I recall.

It just didn't affect the decisions of Cheney/Bush, sadly.

Ditto with my country...the anti-war effort was very outspoken and active.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2011 06:57 pm
@dlowan,
I don't know what constitutes 'quite a few' but lets allow that there were considerable numbers and give those folks the credit they are due.

I guess my point is, Dlowan, that even after the facts become abundantly clear, there is no down side for the war criminals. For them, life goes on, wealth accumulates, often faster than before they committed their war crimes, and people, ordinary citizens, help to distort reality with a steady infusion of propaganda.
0 Replies
 
 

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