Kiss My Ass Irene

@sozobe,

These days, when they are putting in new housing developments, one of the things they do is bury fibre optic cable in huge, heavy plastic sheaths because they know there will be a demand for cable teevee and for internet access. When i was still living in Hilliard, they were getting ready to convert yet more corn fields to housing developments, and for about three months, the roads i drove on to get to work had crews digging up the ditches to bury fibre optic cable for the new housing development. Sure, there are some issues about burying cables, but nothing like the cost of repairing above ground power lines.

0 Replies

@sozobe,

In Germany, practically all local power lines have been underground for at least a generation. When folks visit me from Germany, they often take pictures of American power lines because they're intrigued by how quaint and fragile they are. Obviously this is not prohibitively expensive and not dangerous. I think Americans have crappy power lines for the same reason they have a crappy window design and crappy shower heads: They're not trying the better stuff because they don't know it's out there, and they don't know something better is out there because nobody has tried it. (To be fair, there are mirror images of this pattern in Germany.)

1 Reply

The United States and Canada, thanks to George Westinghouse and Nikola Tesla, were "electrified" on a large scale well before Europe was. Additionally, the bombing of Germany, and the "Transportation Plan" from Eisenhower's staff which ruthlessly bombed France, meant those nations had to rebuild so much of their infrastructure. A lot of people in the United States (read capitalist and share holders) have a vested interest in the status quo, and aren't about to spend money to upgrade a system which is a cash cow for them, and the cost of the maintenance and repair of which they can pass along to the customer. This sort of thing only gets done is the governments pay for it, and taxpayers don't to foot the bill. A lot of the innovative systems in Europe are a product of the development of 1950s systems and thinking, while the electric grid in the United States and Canada has basically remained the same since the 1890s.

1 Reply

@jespah,

We've found it's a combination. That is, it's officially the power company's responsibility, but they don't take it super-seriously. Like, a couple of years between the request and something actually happening.

We've gone ahead and paid for tree trimmers/ arborists to deal with branches that are too close to power lines, as a preventive measure. It did seem to help -- we haven't had a power outage in an unusually long time, and there have been a few storms in that period that usually would cause problems.

Setanta and Thomas, interesting. Perhaps I shall rant a little louder/ in a more targeted fashion. (I'm feeling more powerful than usual because last year's ranting about school lunches has already borne fruit [literally].)

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

A lot of people in the United States (read capitalist and share holders) have a vested interest in the status quo, and aren't about to spend money to upgrade a system which is a cash cow for them, and the cost of the maintenance and repair of which they can pass along to the customer.

Sounds plausible. May I ask how the United States compares to Canada in this respect? I've visited, but didn't pay attention to any power lines.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Canada has a government with more power at the Federal level than the United States, able to mandate action by provincial governments. They are, very slowly, burying power lines--but of course, in cities that's difficult because the municipalities are responsible for those costs, and the provincial governments always plead poverty. Basically, as in the United States, they are wedded to the system as it was built in the 1890s. They sell a lot of electic power to the United States, too (especially Québec), so there's little to no incentive for them to adopt a system not now in use in the United States. In the 1890s, no one foresaw the costs of storm damage to the electric grid.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Quote:

they have a crappy window design and crappy shower heads

Could you expand on that a bit, Thomas? I'm especially interested in the window design. What are the things that make German/European windows better?

2 Replies

@JTT,

You can look out of them on to images like this.

http://www.beehivecity.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/david-cameron-bullingdon.jpg

0 Replies

The whys of a hurricane:

Quote:

Three aircraft are taking to the skies [see here] over the tropical Atlantic next month in an ambitious field project designed to directly attack this question -- what principal investor Christopher Davis of the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado, describes as "one of the long-standing mysteries about hurricanes."

It's been particularly difficult to observe the earliest stages of hurricane development over the years, partly because early development often takes place far from land, and it is difficult to get aircraft on the scene. And the timing is often difficult, because by the time you realize something might be happening, it has already happened, or it may be so far along that it is difficult to figure out why it is happening. The trick really to get aircraft out there early enough that we can see the very beginnings of circulation developing and distinguish situations that lead to a storm versus those that don't.

In the video below,

http://news.discovery.com/earth/why-do-hurricanes-form.html

Davis delivers a great explanation of science and logistics of PREDICT -- the Pre-Depression Investigation of Cloud Systems in the Tropics, which begins in August and runs through the middle of September, the height of the hurricane season. In addition to NCAR's Gulfstream V research plane, based on St. Croix in the U.S. Virgin Islands, the project will deploy aircraft from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration and NASA.

0 Replies

@sozobe,

Quote:

power outages must have a cost, too.

edit: other responses weren't there yet when I typed the above. I had wondered about dangers of being underground. Can't they sheathe the wires in something extremely durable? Or does that add crazy expense?

Every power outage is a lost revenue opportunity for the power companies. So they actually have a vested interest in getting us back on line as quickly as possible.
We have several ordinance writeups from the Pa Council of Municipalities. Weve just adopted one that requires new developments to have all unerground services via conduits for phone , fibre optic AND all power. The neat thing with these is that an RFID can be placed at each node of the buried cables to "Self report" about any breaks or build up of resistance. CAmera and sensor technology is so tiny and better than the old "pigs" that I was used to using for chemical feed lines back in nthe 80's.

Nope, I see no reason why burying cables shouldnt be started as a step toward modernizing our various infrastructure.
How many accidents in DUI's involve hitting power lines?

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Quote:

Canada has a government with more power at the Federal level than the United States, able to mandate action by provincial governments.

I'm not sure that this is an accurate statement. As in the US, each level of government has its own enumerated powers.

0 Replies

@JTT,

In Britain and North America, you can't have a window that's both easy to open and well insulated. Their sliding-window design makes this inevitable. If their rubber insulation closes too tight, you can't slide them open anymore. Yet if they're easy to slide open, their insulation lets a whole lot of air through. In North America, you can't have it both ways, so you usually end up with a bad compromise. Windows leak air but don't hemorrhage it; in return, they're tedious to open but not impossible.

Such compromises are unnecessary in Europe, because you can have it both ways. European windows have hinges on the side so they can work like doors, or they have hinges on the bottom so you can tilt them. Indeed, most of them have both, so you can do both. Either way, there's no sliding involved. That way, they're easy to open when you want to, and they're shut tight when you shut them. There's no air coming through at the edges.

As an added bonus, the outside of a European window is trivial to clean. You just open it to the inside, door-style, and access the outside glass. No ladders or cranes necessary.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thanks, Thomas. Yup, sliders are the worst windows possible. They are great at one thing, they are cheap. [comma splice]

Are you familiar with the newer German windows that are in use in the ultra low energy use houses? Do they just have beefed up hinges that make them more airtight?

Some US companies do make certain styles of their windows washable from the inside.

2 Replies

@farmerman,

On CNBC this morning someone from the power industries was saying the cost was about 10 to 1 for underground vs overhead.

Someone else suggested this might be a great jobs program.

1 Reply

The Weather Underground has some beautiful photography of the ugly power of nature in the form of Irene:

http://www.wunderground.com/worldview/?collection=91

Here's an example:

http://icons-ecast.wxug.com/data/wximagenew/d/devdave/64-awesome.jpg

0 Replies

@parados,

The power industry is not what Id consider an objective source for information re: costs for stringing power lines. Remember, Duke Power in NC is one of the biggestpurveyors of"Power poles", and since the infrastructure has been set up for over 100 years, the main areas of cost have already been covered, amortized, and expensed.

"Slant drilling and sleeving an underground hole is major cheap today. Its a really mature technology.

2 Replies

@JTT,

Double hung windows have just been chosen by architects because thats what they always used. MArvin and PElla and several other window companies make several other style that are not double hung. BUT, when the typical "AMerican style 4 square house" has 6 over 6 double hung windows, the builders and designers go for those. Ive seen many of the "prairie style" windows that have small jalousey style openers and no rubber seal against wood.

Germany (I think) is more heavily regulated than we are. SOmetimes a design standard with strict adherance to a "BOCA" code will allow US style freedom of choice but will add conformity of style in window sealing.

We have an old house that we replaced all our windows with PElla. For the mopst part, these have been great windows (Two of them have failed but PElla made good on them). These are 9 over 9 erzats "double hung" windows. They actually swing in and out and the entire upper or lower casememnts are removed when we have screens in. IT IS A TERRIBLE PITA to remove and entire block of panes but its more energy efficient, and when we have the AC on the windows are tight as drumheads. Same thing for winter cause they are double paned and filled with some noble gas(I think xenon)

0 Replies

@farmerman,

Communities in Florida have been going to underground power since Hurricane Wilma

Quote:

South Floridians, some without electricity for weeks after Hurricane Wilma, have pushed to bury power lines underground — until they saw the price tag.

In Fort Lauderdale, residents who want power lines buried could end up paying up to $25,000 over 20 years.

"That's a deal-killer," said Tamara Tennant, president of the city's Riviera Isles Homeowners Association, which wants the city to allow repayment over 30 years.
Florida Power & Light, the state's largest utility, pays up to 25 percent of the cost of burying lines for qualified neighborhoods.

That's not enough to sway most of the 35 cities that clamored for buried lines after the region's last hurricane in 2005. Only nine have agreements with FPL to pursue it.

Like FM said: You can't let the power company crunch the numbers:

Quote:

Some cities have managed to reduce the cost. For instance, Jupiter Island, a town in southMartin County, wanted to bury all of its lines and was given an early, "ball park" estimate of $21 million from FPL, said Town Manager Gene Rauth. The utility later lowered that to $12.5 million. By shopping around for some of the work FPL would have done, the city lowered its cost to $8.5 million, he said.

The majority of the city's roughly 700 residents approved the project through a referendum and straw poll. They're paying the cost over 20 years through a property tax.

The cost to each resident depends on his or her property value. On average, it works out to about $12,000.

0 Replies

When i was living in Ohio, the phone company (GTE) went to PUCO (Public Utilities Commission of Ohio) asking for a rate increase to bury fibre optic. PUCO told them no dice, you are responsible for maintaining your own infrastructure, and if you want to alter that infrastructure, to your own advantage, you can pay for it, no rate increase. Surprise, surprise--when their appeal to the appeals court went belly up, and the state supreme court refused to put the case on their docket, GTE suddenly discovered some discretionary funds to bury the fiber optic. Somebody probably overlooked that money at first . . .

0 Replies

@farmerman,

When they were burying the lines out by Hilliard, they had these huge trucks into which the sleeve material and the fibre optic was fed. Those boys mostly sat around while the backhoes dug the trench, they they'd run out several hundred feet of sleeve and cable, and the dozers would come along and bury it again. The determining factor for how fast they moved was the speed of the backhoes. It reminded me of stringing coax cable for cameras with one of our customers. You spend two or three days with a half dozen people setting up bridle rings above the drop ceiling, sleeving fire walls and then running pull string through the rings and the sleeves. The next morning, two guys come along and run all the coax and the control wires in a morning.

1 Reply

Kiss My Ass Irene

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know