42
   

Rioting spreading through London & to other English cities.

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:23 am
Lesson From Europe (Take 2)

No, social democracy doesn't 'work.'

By BRET STEPHENS

'The real lesson from Europe," wrote Paul Krugman in January 2010, "is actually the opposite of what conservatives claim: Europe is an economic success, and that success shows that social democracy works." Here are some postcards from the social democracy that works.

• In Britain, 239 patients died of malnutrition in the country's public hospitals in 2007, according to a charity called Age U.K. And at any given time, a quarter-million Britons have been made to wait 18 weeks or longer for medical treatment. This follows a decade in which funding for the National Health Service doubled.

• In France, the incidence of violent crimes rose by nearly 15% between 2002 and 2008, according to statistics provided by Eurostat. In Italy violent crime was up 38%. In the EU as a whole, the rate rose by 6% despite declines in robbery and murder.

• As of June 2011, Eurostat reports that the unemployment rate in the euro zone was 9.9%. For the under-25s, it was 20.3%. In Spain, youth unemployment stands at 45.7%, which tops even the Greek rate of 38.5%. Then there's this remarkable detail: Among Europeans aged 18-34, no fewer than 46%—51 million people in all—live with their parents.

.• In 2009, 37.4% of European children were born outside of marriage. That's more than twice the 1990 rate of 17.4%. The number of children per woman for the EU is 1.56, catastrophically below the replacement rate of 2.1. Roughly half of all Europeans belong in the "dependency" category on account of their youth or old age. Just 64% of the working-age population actually works.

I could go on in this vein for pages, but you get the point. Europe is not a happy place and hasn't been for nearly a generation. It's about to get much worse.

This isn't simply because Europe's economic crisis is still in its infancy, although it is. The tab for bailing out Greece, Portugal and Ireland alone—which together account for about 5% of euro-zone GDP—already runs to hundreds of billions of euros, with no resolution in sight. By contrast, Italy's GDP is more than seven times as large as Greece's. Italy is too big to fail—and too big to save. If the so-called PIIGS wind up leaving the euro zone (or if Germany beats them to it by returning to a Deutsche mark), the dislocations will take years to sort through.

Even then, Europe will still have to address the more profound challenges of economic growth, demography and entitlement reform. But in order for it to do so it must have a clear idea of the nature of the challenges it faces. It doesn't. It also requires political resources to overcome the beneficiaries—labor unions, pensioners, university students, farmers, Brussels technocrats and so on—of the current system. That's not going to happen.

Politics, for starters, prevents it. Whenever a supposed "neo-liberal" comes to power—whether it's Nicolas Sarkozy or Silvio Berlusconi or Angela Merkel—they typically wind up doing no more than tinkering around the edges of regulatory or tax reform. That's because they are stymied by coalition compromises at home, or by European compromises in Brussels, or by some deeper failure of will and character.

Margaret Thatcher was the exception to this rule. But in both Britain and Europe she has had neither equals nor heirs.

Demography also prevents reform. The median age in the EU is 40.6 years. (In the U.S. it's 36.9). Older populations typically resist change, demand the benefits they've been taxed all their working lives for—and vote. The demographic balance is only going to tip further in their favor, and it will change only when younger Europeans decide that children, plural, are worth having. What that will take, only a faith in future prosperity—and in God—can provide. Outside of its growing Muslim population, Europe has neither.

Finally, there is ideology. For the past four decades, "Europeanism" has been an amalgam of Keynesian economics, bureaucratic centralization, and welfarism, corporate and social. Even now, the ideology remains unshaken by events. Though there is plenty of talk about getting spending under control and balancing budgets (typically by way of tax increases), nobody in Europe is proposing a serious growth agenda. At the beginning of the Greek crisis I asked a visiting official from Athens what his ideas were for growth: He suggested olive tree plantations and wind farms. He might as well have thrown a Sicilian Expedition into the mix.

For the U.S., none of this is yet in our cards: That's guaranteed by the tea party that so many Europeans (and Paul Krugman) find so vulgar. But it's worth noting what the fruits of social democracy—a world in which, as Kipling once wrote, "all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins"—really are. And in the wake of the U.K. riots, the rest of his prophecy also bears repeating:

As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn,

The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903480904576510200756243420.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

No, social democracy doesn't 'work.'


Could you please give a hint what that line has to do with the quoted article?

izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:38 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
It's funny, but I don't recognise my country there. Maybe you should try visiting Europe before you start pontificating. The comments of some washed up hack from the same stable as Fox 'News' could hardly be classed as a reliable source of information. You're not fooling anyone,(except perhaps yourself, but that's not difficult.) The NHS is superior in almost every way to the health care system in America. Every independent report confirms as much.

This is the preamble to an incredibly well researched study by The Commonwealth Fund.

Quote:
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall
Mirror, Mirror on the Wall
How the Performance of the U.S. Health Care
System Compares Internationally
2010 Update
Karen Davis, Cathy Schoen, and Kristof Stremikis
June 2010
ABSTRACT: Despite having the most costly health system in the world, the United States consistently underperforms
on most dimensions of performance, relative to other countries. This report—an update to three
earlier editions—includes data from seven countries and incorporates patients’ and physicians’ survey
results on care experiences and ratings on dimensions of care. Compared with six other nations—Australia,
Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom—the U.S. health care system
ranks last or next-to-last on five dimensions of a high performance health system: quality, access, efficiency,
equity, and healthy lives. Newly enacted health reform legislation in the U.S. will start to address these problems
by extending coverage to those without and helping to close gaps in coverage—leading to improved
disease management, care coordination, and better outcomes over time.
Support
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:41 am
@Arella Mae,
Thomas Jefferson said--"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance."

Frank Harris, the inventor of tabloid journalist, said that the only things his readers were interested in was kissing and fighting. And we can't do kissing on a middle-class thread like this Arella so if we are to be interesting it has to be the fighting.

One claim appeared last week that a woman had been raped during the riot but there has been nothing on it since: which is surprising. It must have been just a Harrisian headline come on.

It can hardly have escaped anybody's notice that the passive resistance demonstrations of the last few years have had no discernible effects.

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:47 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

• In Britain, 239 patients died of malnutrition in the country's public hospitals in 2007, according to a charity called Age U.K. And at any given time, a quarter-million Britons have been made to wait 18 weeks or longer for medical treatment. This follows a decade in which funding for the National Health Service doubled.


From the (US) RN Journal
Quote:
About 60% of hospitalized older adults (age 65 or older) and 35-85% in long-term care facilities are experiencing malnutrition (Furman, 2006).
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:48 am
@spendius,
No offense meant here but if we all maintained that type of attitude then the chaos will continue.

What does it say for us if in order for it to be interesting it has to be the fighting? I won't butt in again.

I thought maybe it was something we all needed to think about. My apologies for interfering.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:07 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The NHS is superior in almost every way to the health care system in America.


Quote:
[...] Based on their strong performance during the first half of this year, UnitedHealth, WellPoint and Aetna have all have raised their profit forecast for 2011. In other words, they expect to earn far more this year than last year and far more than even the most hopeful investors and analysts had anticipated.

This has made Wall Street very happy indeed, as reflected in the breathtaking increase in the companies' share prices over the past year. Since the end of July 2010, investors have bid up the stock by more than 50 percent at four of the big five. WellPoint, the laggard, saw its stock price increase by a still-impressive 35 percent.

One of the secrets to achieving these results is what the insurers euphemistically call "medical management." That often translates into denied claims and denied coverage for doctor-ordered care. The fewer claims you pay and the more procedures you refuse to pay for, the more money is left over for investors to put in their pockets.

Another important way they've been able to sustain such a string of impressive earnings results is to shift more and more of the cost of care to their policyholders. An increasing percentage of these companies' policyholders are enrolled in plans that require greater cost sharing. Those policyholders pay more for care out of their own pockets than ever before while their insurers are paying much less.
[...]
Insurance industry executives are experts at talking in code, which makes it difficult to understand just how much they value profits over people. Occasionally, though, they slip up, as Aetna's chief financial officer, Joseph Zubretsky, did last Wednesday during his company's conference call with analysts.

Clearly concerned that investors might think Aetna was willing to grow by adding people to its rolls who might have substantial medical needs, Zubretsky disabused Wall Street of that notion.

"We would like to have both profit and growth, but if you have to choose between one or the other, you take margin and profit and you sacrifice the growth line," Zubretsky said.

Whether he knew it or not, he was channeling WellPoint CEO Angela Braley. In a 2008 conference call with financial analysts, Braley had to acknowledge that her company had spent more on medical care during the previous three months than she and Wall Street had expected.
In the future, she promised, "We will not sacrifice profitability for membership."

That was exactly what Wall Street wanted to hear.
Source: Health Insurers Sacrifice Americans for Profit
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:10 am
Undoubtedly, izzy2 doesn't recognize his country in this article either.


The Soft-on-Crime Roots of British Disorder

By JOYCE LEE MALCOLM

As wild gangs of youths burned homes, shops and cars and severely beat anyone who tried to stop them last week, English people tried to defend themselves. Their desperation triggered a 5,000% increase in purchases of baseball bats from Amazon.

This is a sad symbol of the failure of the British approach to crime—with its sympathy for offenders, intolerance of self-defense, and unwillingness to pay for adequate crime control. A people once proud of their peaceful country and unarmed policemen had to resort to clubs to protect life and limb.

Great Britain's leniency began in the 1950s, with a policy that only under extraordinary circumstances would anyone under 17 be sent to prison. This was meant to rehabilitate young offenders. But the alternative to incarceration has been simply to warn them to behave, maybe require community service, and return them to the streets. There has been justifiable concern about causes of crime such as poverty and unemployment, but little admission that some individuals prefer theft to work and that deterrence must be taken seriously.

Victims of aggression who defend themselves or attempt to protect their property have been shown no such leniency. Burglars who injured themselves breaking into houses have successfully sued homeowners for damages. In February, police in Surrey told gardeners not to put wire mesh on the windows of their garden sheds as burglars might hurt themselves when they break in.

A suspect, center, believed to have taken part in recent riots leaves Westminster Magistrates Court after being released on bail in London on Sunday.
.If a homeowner protecting himself and his family injures an intruder beyond what the law considers "reasonable," he will be prosecuted for assault. Tony Martin, an English farmer, was sentenced to life in prison for killing one burglar and wounding another with a shotgun during the seventh break-in at his rural home in 1999. While his sentence was later reduced to five years, he was refused parole in 2003 because he was judged a danger to burglars.

In 2008, a robber armed with a knife attacked shopkeeper Tony Singh in West Lancashire. During the struggle the intruder was fatally stabbed with his own knife. Although the robber had a long record of violent assault, prosecutors were preparing to charge Mr. Singh with murder until public outrage stopped them.

Meanwhile, the cost of criminal justice has convinced British governments to shorten the sentences of adult criminals, even those guilty of violent crimes, and to release them when they have served half of their sentence. Police have been instructed by the British Home Office to let burglars and first-time offenders who confess to any of some 60 crimes—ranging from assault and arson to sex with an underage girl—off with a caution. That means no jail time, no fine, no community service, no court appearance.

In 2009, 70% of apprehended burglars avoided prison, according to British Ministry of Justice figures. The same year, 20,000 young offenders were electronically tagged and sent home, a 40% increase in the number of people tagged over three years.

All sorts of weapons useful for self-defense have been severely restricted or banned. A 1953 law, the "Prevention of Crime Act," made any item someone carried for possible protection an "offensive weapon" and therefore illegal. Today there is also a list of devices the mere possession of which carries a 10-year sentence. Along with rocket launchers and machine guns, the list includes chemical sprays and any knife with a blade more than three inches long.

Handguns? Parliament banned their possession in 1997. As an example of the preposterous lengths to which zealous British authorities would enforce this law, consider the fate of Paul Clark, a former soldier. He was arrested in 2009 by Surrey police when he brought them a shotgun he found in his garden. For doing this personally—instead of asking the police to retrieve it—he received a five-year prison sentence. It took a public outcry to reduce the normal five-year sentence to 12 months, and then suspend it.

The ban on handguns did not stop actual crimes committed with handguns. Those crimes rose nearly 40%, according to a 2001 study by King's College London's Center for Defence Studies, and doubled by a decade later, according to government statistics reported in the London Telegraph in October 2009.

Knives? It's illegal for anyone under age 18 to buy one, and using a knife for self-defense is unlawful. In 1991, American tourist Dina Letarte of Tempe, Ariz., used a penknife to protect herself from a violent attack by three men in a London subway. She was convicted of carrying an offensive weapon, fined, and given a two-year suspended sentence.

The result of policies that punish the innocent but fail to deter crime has been stark, even before the latest urban violence. The last decade has seen a doubling of gun crime. According to the latest annual report of the Home Office (2009), there was a 25% increase in crimes involving contact, such as assault and battery, over the previous year.

The Conservative government came to power pledging to end the police "caution culture" and permit more scope for self-defense. But old habits die hard. The Conservative recommendation in December 2009 to permit householders to use any force "not grossly disproportionate" against an intruder was described in the Guardian newspaper as "backward and barbaric."

And despite the uselessness of police during the recent urban violence—standing in line while thugs hurled bricks and bottles at them and looted and burned—Home Secretary Theresa May initially ruled out the use of water cannons or asking for army help, insisting on Sky News that "the way we police in Britain is not through use of water cannon. The way we police in Britain is through consent of communities."

Subsequently Prime Minister David Cameron warned looters and arsonists that they would be prosecuted, and he authorized the use of plastic bullets and water cannon. But the people of London have taken matters into their own hands. In a Turkish neighborhood, shopkeepers and their families protected their street standing guard all night.

"They come to our shops," one man told the London Daily Mail last week, "and we fight them with sticks." When a gang invaded an upscale restaurant, threatening customers and demanding their valuables, the staff attacked them brandishing knives and drove them out.

The lesson from many years of failed criminal justice policies is that deterrence matters, police cannot always protect the public from violence and criminality, and ordinary people must be allowed to protect themselves. Reducing them to baseball bats is unconscionable.

Ms. Malcolm, professor of law at the George Mason University School of Law, is the author of "Guns and Violence: The English Experience" (Harvard, 2004) and "To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right" (Harvard, 1996).

Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:12 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It is the sub-title of the article. I suggest you direct your question to its author.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:15 am
@Arella Mae,
Quote:
What does it say for us if in order for it to be interesting it has to be the fighting?

For some reason many humans find violence interesting but luckily some of us seem to be ever so slowly evolving past this {at least I hope}

I do think that Jesus got it right when he said that the love of money is the root of all evil. I would have added, the love of money is the root of all evil "for the majority of people and the minority have a neurological problem that is taught psychologically to many of the majority and hopefully the majority will realize this one day soon!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Again you can stretch isolated examples to prove a point, but the figures stand for themselves. There are significantly more victims of gun crime in your country than in mine. We don't want your healthcare system, and we don't want your gun culture.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It is the sub-title of the article.


Since you didn't use quote marks, I couldn't get it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 10:21 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Do riots show that tensions of earlier decades still smoulder? An article in The Guardian by "Matthew Connolly, who lived through the aftermath of previous unrest in Toxteth, Tottenham and Bradford", and now "asks what has changed for young people".
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 12:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
This has made Wall Street very happy indeed, as reflected in the breathtaking increase in the companies' share prices over the past year. Since the end of July 2010, investors have bid up the stock by more than 50 percent at four of the big five. WellPoint, the laggard, saw its stock price increase by a still-impressive 35 percent.


Well--that sure is powerful motivation for doing their best to make people sick.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 03:00 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Could there possibly be a good {logical} reason for these people dieing of malnutrition?

I think that there could be a good reason but then again I can always be wrong!
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 08:31 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

It you wish peace and a stable society the only way to do so is having the vast bulk of the population to be stake holders in that society.

Strange that there is a group of people on this website who think that a small ruling class can seize all or at least most of the wealth of a society and not have the society come apart as a result.

ya... what bill said...
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 08:45 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Just read the article, an opinion piece from the Wall Street Journal.
The Soft-on-Crime Roots of British Disorder
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903918104576502613435380574.html?mod=djemEditorialPage_h

I disagree with Joyce Lee Malcom's views on the riots in Britain, as do many of the contributors responding to her article.
However, of course, she is entitled to her opinion, as is anyone else, I guess.

A quick Google search, to learn more about Joyce Lee Malcom, informs me that she is a long-time vocal supporter of the (US) second amendment - the right to bear arms .... a supporter of an armed citizenry. So, of course, an opponent of gun control. She has written many books & articles on the subject. So it does not surprise me that she takes the line she has taken in this article. But it seems to me that her argument is more about her favourite cause than the riots in Britain in 2011.
In my opinion, I seriously doubt that an armed citizenry (or police force, for that matter) would have improved the situation during the rioting. I suspect that there would be more dead people now if that was the case.
But anyway, that's just my opinion. I live in a country with gun control laws & I prefer it that way.

I'd be very interested to hear what British A2Kers think of Joyce Lee Malcom's arguments, though .
I don't want to divert this discussion to pro + con arguments to gun issues in the US. Please. I am interested in your thoughts. Do you think people would have been better off during the riots, or would have felt safer, if guns weren't banned in Britain?
dlowan
 
  3  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 09:35 pm
@msolga,
Good research msolga
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Aug, 2011 11:08 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Do you think people would have been better off during the riots, or would have felt safer, if guns weren't banned in Britain?

I'm not British and don't know what British think.

Here, in Germany, no one (nearly literally) would get the idea that guns at home have something to do with personal safety at home (or during periods of riots).

I think that you'd hear calls for capital punishment faster then.

But we're a different society, gun ownership isn't that rare as it is in Britain, and armed policemen/-women are the norm.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2011 02:52 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Do you think people would have been better off during the riots, or would have felt safer, if guns weren't banned in Britain?


Of course not, our gun laws keep the levels of gun crime down. If the rioters had had automatic weapons there would have been slaughter on a grand scale. Most of the crime was against property which can be repaired.

When a bunch of drunked EDL supporters turned up on Wednesday night, to offer their support/act as vigilantes, they took up an enormous amount of police time. I hate to think what would have happened if that bunch of racist thugs had been armed.
 

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