10
   

Germany has Officially gone Looney Tunes

 
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 08:00 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Their culture does not do that.


That we do not agree on at all.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

EDIT: it is interesting to ponder what the German government response would be to a german popular uprising along the lines of the Tea Party or the Arab Spring.....would they be outlawed outright? Constantly harassed with criminal complaints and fines? Jailed?


Well, where's your problem?

Teapartiers are supporting one single party, have send members of parliament in that party.

That can happen here as well - actually a lot easier, since our political spectrum isn't limited to two parties in parliaments.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:15 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
the people are either free or they are not, law either works to keep people free from state oppression or it does not, what you call your law is irrelevant.


Law works quite well to keep people free, as long as all is according to the constitution.

And it's not a question how I call a law but how a legal system works. And Roman law does work quite differently to common law.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
§ 86 StGB Dissemination of Means of Propaganda of Unconstitutional Organizations
(1) Whoever domestically disseminates or produces, stocks, imports or exports or makes publicly accessible through data storage media for dissemination domestically or abroad, means of propaganda:
1. of a party which has been declared to be unconstitutional by the Federal Constitutional Court or a party or organization, as to which it has been determined, no longer subject to appeal, that it is a substitute organization of such a party;
[…]
4. means of propaganda, the contents of which are intended to further the aims of a former National Socialist organization,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine. […]
(3) Subsection (1) shall not be applicable if the means of propaganda or the act serves to further civil enlightenment, to avert unconstitutional aims, to promote art or science, research or teaching, reporting about current historical events or similar purposes. […]
§ 86a StGB Use of Symbols of Unconstitutional Organizations
(1) Whoever:
1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (§ 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in § 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or
2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto. […]
[edit]
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Well, where's your problem?
The problem is that I have no confidence that the German government would allow the popular opinion to prevail if it were in opposition to a current stance that the government cares about. What would happen if one of the parties decided that it was time to leave the Euro or time to end the EU experiment? What would happen if one of the parties demanded the forced expulsion of all Roma who have no citizenship? What would happen if one of the parties demanded the nationalization of the DB and/or Deutsche Post? Would they be allowed to speak and try to build a majority for their view, or would they be repressed by the government?

I used to think that I knew the answer, but know I dont know anymore.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
Leaving the EURO or the EU is legally quite difficult, not to use harsher words.

If a party says so - well, there are quite a few such voices in quite a few of the small parties.

The DB (since 1994 Deutsche Bahn AG) as well as the Deutsche Post (since 1995, now called Deutsche Post DHL) are private organisations.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:40 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The DB (since 1994 Deutsche Bahn AG) as well as the Deutsche Post (since 1995, now called Deutsche Post DHL) are private organisations.
Yes, which is why nationalizing them and making them Government agencies again would be a big move....
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
Could be. Same with banks. Or steel industry. Or ...
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 3 Aug, 2011 11:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Could be. Same with banks. Or steel industry. Or ...
You are evading the question, would the government allow the citizens to pursue their objective if the citizens set their sights on actions that run counter to the most central goals of the current government? Who runs the show in the end, the people of Germany or the bureaucrats in Berlin and Brussels???
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 12:09 am
@hawkeye10,
Of course, citizens and/or political parties can do so.

That worked in the past, is done today and will be done in future .... as long as we still have our constitution.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 12:11 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Who runs the show in the end, the people of Germany or the bureaucrats in Berlin and Brussels???


Bureaucrats only "run the show" as long as they follow the laws - and these laws can change, according to results of any election.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 12:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Nice. Here, the politicians change - sometimes. The bureaucrats seem to be there forever.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 12:27 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

Nice. Here, the politicians change - sometimes. The bureaucrats seem to be there forever.


I didn't want to imply that our bureaucrats change (well, perhaps some in the higher ranks). But laws may change after elections. And that is what bureaucrats have to follow.

(Max Weber wrote about this -here, in German)
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 12:49 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I have been increasingly concerned since the Thilo Sarrazin affair that Germany no longer allows sufficient levels of free speech to function as a democracy. The outrageously excessive fines for petty insults as outlined in the OP do nothing to convince me that there is no problem.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 01:17 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

I have been increasingly concerned since the Thilo Sarrazin affair that Germany no longer allows sufficient levels of free speech to function as a democracy. The outrageously excessive fines for petty insults as outlined in the OP do nothing to convince me that there is no problem.




Sarrazin has been critised - both in the positive as well as negative way.
He's not hindered to say what he wants - actually he's still getting quite some income by touring around with his speeches.

To call those fines for insults here "outrageously excessive" and the insults "petty" might certainly correct from your perspective.
Same is with my view about the power one single patrolman or highway patrol officer has in the USA.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 01:24 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Same is with my view about the power one single patrolman or highway patrol officer has in the USA.


Fair enough.....And there are areas of the German concept of freedom that are clearly superior to Americas, the regulation of personal information is one big one. I do think that you Germans need to cut back on conversation regulation at this point though, it is clearly getting to be a problem.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 01:30 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I do think that you Germans need to cut back on conversation regulation at this point though, it is clearly getting to be a problem.


I don't think it to be a problem, at least not in our legal system and under our constitution.
It is one, if you use other legal systems and constitutions as parameter.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 02:21 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Sarrazin has been critised - both in the positive as well as negative way.
He's not hindered to say what he wants - actually he's still getting quite some income by touring around with his speeches.


Thilo Sarrazin said

Quote:
It always takes courage to express an opinion which is not shared by everybody and in the Germany it is getting more and more difficult to have this courage because most people are not very courageous and those people who are cautious think twice before they express their opinions. This is a development which can endanger the democracy. What I experienced over what I have experienced over the last few months was extraordinary.

http://clubtroppo.com.au/2011/07/24/thilo-sarrazin-and-the-politics-of-political-correctness/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00d0fbj

Sarrazin is of course being diplomatic here, because as he well knows he himself was tossed out of his job on the encouragement of almost all of the government class to include Merkel, as was forced to apologize before he was grudgingly allowed to stay in the SPD as the price of speaking what he believed was scientific based truth. Harsh treatment of those who say unpopular thinks has a chilling effect on debate all though the society when the retribution is so harsh as it was here and so public.

Quote:
The politician wrote that he did not intend with his book to express either "social Darwinist theories" or a "selective population policy." He said it was also not his intention to discriminate against particular groups or immigrants. "To the contrary, with my theses, I wanted to promote the integration of migrant groups who because of their origin, social background or religion were not prepared or in a situation to integrate more strongly," Sarrazin wrote. "At no point did I have the intention of violating Social Democratic principles with my theories," he added. "If members of the party feel that I have impaired their understanding of Social Democracy, then I regret that, even if it is my opinion that my book did not do so on any occasion."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,758709,00.html

And I note that party leadership worked hard to push him out over the objections of the rank and file citizens which does nothing to calm my fears that Germany is developing a political elite that is unwilling to listen to the citizens

Quote:
Public opinion also appears to be behind keeping Sarrazin in the SPD. A survey by pollster Infratest Dimap to be published in the Saturday issue of the daily Die Welt found that 60 percent of Germans believe he should be allowed to stay in the party. Of the members of the SPD, 62 percent said he should stay, versus 31 who supported his ouster.

Nevertheless, many see Thursday's decision as a blow to senior party leaders, including SPD national party boss Sigmar Gabriel, who had pushed publicly for Sarrazin's ouster despite the obvious diffiulties. With the SPD slipping in recent public opinion polls, Gabriel's defeat on the Sarrazin issue and the party's clumsy handling of the issue is unlikely to help.




Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 02:43 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Sarrazin is of course being diplomatic here, because as he well knows he himself was tossed out of his job on the encouragement of almost all of the government class to include Merkel, as was forced to apologize before he was grudgingly allowed to stay in the SPD as the price of speaking what he believed was scientific based truth. Harsh treatment of those who say unpopular thinks has a chilling effect on debate all though the society when the retribution is so harsh as it was here and so public.

You may call it "tossed out". But he didn't follow his the rules as laid down in his contract.
However, the disputes were resolved "amicably" = Sarrazin now gets a higher pension until 2014, from than onwards his normal one.

I think - being a SPD-member myself - that he should have been kicked out of the party. However, the relevant party organisation decided differently.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Aug, 2011 03:26 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I think - being a SPD-member myself - that he should have been kicked out of the party. However, the relevant party organisation decided differently.
It has been charged to try to bury the problem so as to not divert energy from trying to save the Berlin elections. OOPS, that sure backfired. Given how the Greens ate your lunch for you in Baden-Wuerttemberg I can well understand why you SPD boys and girls are concerned....... still the debate over what matters more, speaking truth or the SPD pro immigrant ideology, would have been useful. Hopefully your quota plan put in place to address the Sarrazin fiasco flops, I detest putting people in positions based upon reasons other than ability to do the job.

Quote:
Former Bundesbank executive Thilo Sarrazin has made further inflammatory remarks about immigrants just days after he was given a reprieve by his own Social Democratic Party (SPD).

In his first public comments since the centre-left party decided to drop its efforts to throw him out, Sarrazin spoke out in characteristic blunt style against his party's plan to introduce an "migrant" quota for senior positions.

“Intelligence doesn’t depend on whether or not you’re a migrant,” he said Tuesday night at an event in Waltrop in the Ruhr region of North Rhine-Westphalia.

There were already prominent party members in Berlin of foreign ancestry, he said.

“The more migrant-minded these people are, the less inclined they have been to see problems or difficulties objectively,” he said.

SPD leader Sigmar Gabriel and general secretary Andrea Nahles announced on Monday the party would introduce an immigrant quota – widely seen as a reaction to criticism the party received after its leaders announced the were dropping procedures to kick Sarrazin out. Some 15 percent of leadership positions in the party will be prioritised for people of non-German backgrounds.

The decision not to eject Sarrazin has sparked a backlash. Nazim Kenan, 26, a rising SPD star in the state of Hesse of Kurdish background, announced he was quitting the party, citing the leadership’s “opportunistic approach” to the affair.

Sarrazin has consistently courted controversy with his provocative remarks about immigration and Muslims, most acutely last year when he published a best-selling book on the subject. Among other things, it suggests that certain ethnic groups, notably from Muslim countries tend to be less intelligent and are therefore holding Germany back when they migrate here.

Sarrazin said in Waltrop that anyone denying the hereditary nature of intelligence was “vacuous or criminally lazy-minded.”

In his statements to the SPD leadership, he did not recant any of his statements on immigration, race or intelligence.

http://www.thelocal.de/politics/20110504-34787.html
 

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