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A friend of ours hit our child - what should we do?

 
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2011 10:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I suppose you will have to learn yourself
Not everyone likes to go through life with their head in the sand and unchallenged, some of us have learned that the best relationships and interactions are both cooperative and combative, and so we dont shy away from conflict.....a relevant point for this thread, both when considering what happened and what the reaction to the event was. I have argued for pages that the main problem now is that these people refuse to talk to each other, refuse to have it out. This aversion to the face down (and potentially face up and thus possibly coming to terms) is what dooms the relationship and also any learning that could come from this sad story.
True enough.

I always find it funny how countries pull back their diplomats when the relationship goes down the drain. They should be sending MORE instead.

hawkeye10 wrote:

She says her kid was hit when clearly he was not, and her english is good enough that she should know how wrong the word hit is in this case.
I think she was just simplifying it, its not like she ever tried to describe what the attack was like in high detail. She didnt even say what the man yelled at him, for starters.

She said her son wasnt harmed. If she was so misguided as to see the attack as far more serious than it was, I doubt she would have said that. She would have seen wounds even if they didnt exist.

hawkeye10 wrote:

She knows a guy very well for ten years and yet she had no clue that he had putting hands on her kid in apparent anger in him
Indeed, this is a strange point. Either she didnt know him anywhere as well as she though, what sounds odd given the ten years but isnt impossible, or he has recently adquired some kind of issue that is affecting his personality. Who knows? He could even have started developing some kind of mental disease. Its rare but it can happen.

hawkeye10 wrote:

She has shown no interest in knowing why he did what he did, she would rather evade the reality and come to A2K for support or her evasion.
From what I understood she is waiting for an apology, in the very least. I think thats understandeable, but I agree that a ten year old and quite close relationship would be worthy swallowing the anger and seeking the guy out despite him having not apologized.

hawkeye10 wrote:

She says that she is very strict and that her kids are well behaved and yet this event certainly calls this into question. I have known kids who were well trained by their parents to behave, and they dont generally disobey to this extreme in a potentially dangerous situation, they know better.
The boy probaly did not though it was dangerous. Maybe he hasnt realized yet that any fall can be dangerous, not only big ones.

Also, its a single event. I dont think we can put her raising into question based on a single event. Any kid, not matter how well raised, will slip sometime. And it wasnt a very serious slip.

hawkeye10 wrote:

She has yet to admit that her kid did not behave from what I can find, I see that he apologized but has she told either us or the ex friend that her kid was out of line? I dont think so.
She did.

odessitka wrote:

We certainly did talk to our son about his behavior and explained to him that if he listened to the man and did what he asked right away, nothing would have happened.


hawkeye10 wrote:

She has yet to admit the she and her husband could have handled this better, they attacked their friend for lying hands on their kid but I see no evidence that they have acted towards him in the slightest bit as a long term friend has earned.
Well, like I have already said above, its true that they should seek him out. From what I have heard I think the most likely scenario is that the man has recently adquired an issue of which they are unaware, and could probaly help solve.
manored
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2011 11:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

odess, More to the fact that those who play musical instruments are usually better in school/more intelligent. It's something I read many years ago about a study done about students that played musical instruments. From personal observations about our own children and children of friends that play musical instruments, they have all done very well in school.
I doubt its related to music, its most likely related to being forced to learn something difficult, boring, and that will only ever be usefull to you in a specific area, what is the exact same thing that happens in school =)

odessitka wrote:

There was one time 5 years ago, my son was 6 then, we were having lunch together at a restaurant, and my son talked too much and asked the man too many questions, so he finally started yelling at him to shut up because he wanted quiet during lunch. I remember confronting him immediately and asking him to never yell at my son, but talk to me or my husband first. My husband wasn't there at that precise moment (in case hawkeye will want to point out that "hubby" didn't solve this in a man-to-man way) so I had to handle that myself. Other than that, I don't remember anything that would worry me. But maybe I'm a bad judge of character. This morning I talked to my dad on the phone about this incident, and he told me he never liked the guy. I asked him why, and he said he wasn't sure, he just had a weird feeling about him. There were a couple of things the guy said to him that he didn't like, like for instance, he said he thought parents who make their kids learn how to play musical instruments are complete idiots - he would never do that. (Sounds weird, isn't it???? Yet doesn't mean the guy's out of line). I don't remember ever discussing this topic with him, so I don't really know what to say.
Ah, so there WAS some antecedence. Again, the fact that he just suddently yelled at your kid rather than asking politely ask him to stop first (Im assuming he didnt do this since you didnt mention it) seens odd. Its like he tends to bottle up anger and suddently explode rather than releasing it in small, healthy doses.

Dont you remember anything else? We tend to not see some things unless we search for them. Maybe if you scroll through your memory you will see other things that you hadnt noticed before.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2011 11:13 pm
@dlowan,
Listen to the bunny, odessitka.
I doubt it says in her profile but she deals with a lot of trouble. Her advice, usually very short, if ever, is right on, if she gives it, not often. She has enough trouble at work.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2011 11:36 pm
@manored,
I typed "musical instruments and intelligence," and got the following.

Quote:
Drs. Gottfried Schlaug and Ellen Winner led the Harvard University study in which 41 eight- to eleven-year-olds who had studied either piano or a string instrument for a minimum of three years were compared to 18 children who had no instrumental training. Children in both groups spent 30-40 minutes per week in general music classes at school, but those in the instrumental group also received private lessons learning an instrument (averaging 45 minutes per week) and spent additional time practicing at home.

While it is no surprise that the young musicians scored significantly higher than those in the control group on two skills closely related to their music training (auditory discrimination and finger dexterity), the more surprising result was that they also scored higher in two skills that appear unrelated to music—verbal ability (as measured by a vocabulary IQ test) and visual pattern completion (as measured by the Raven's Progressive Matrices). And furthermore, the longer and more intensely the child had studied his or her instrument, the better he or she scored on these tests.
Studying an instrument thus seems to bring benefits in areas beyond those that are specifically targeted by music instruction, but that is not the end of the story. Although this research sheds light on the question of whether connections between music and other, unrelated skills do exist, more studies examining the causal relationships between instrumental music training, practice intensity, and cognitive enhancements are needed
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 Jul, 2011 11:47 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I'm sorry, CI, but so what? We are looking at the man's behaviour.

That is silly to me, he already showed it.
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 12:05 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I typed "musical instruments and intelligence," and got the following.
Im not denying it, I just think its not tied to the instruments or the music, but to the skills and qualities that learning an instrument forces you to develop, such as concentration and patience.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 12:38 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

Listen to the bunny, odessitka.
I doubt it says in her profile but she deals with a lot of trouble. Her advice, usually very short, if ever, is right on, if she gives it, not often. She has enough trouble at work.

Really? My impression was that she largely stopped trying to sell the victim culture ideology around here after her continuous undocumented fear promotions were no longer eaten like candy by all. Confront her on her talking points and she has nothing, so she sulks off. She has been fighting in the trenches too long, and while I appreciate her work she long ago lost objectivity.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 03:08 am

Coming rather late to this thread...

If this guy got safely off the tree, and the 11-year-old did too, and THEN he grabbed him and threw him to the ground, yelling at him, he is a dangerous idiot and should be avoided.

However I believe that in a gathering of people, the nearest responsible adult should react if a child is doing something wrong, including administering a slap if all else fails.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 04:06 am
@odessitka,
odessitka wrote:
My husband, our kids, and myself were spending a day out by the oceanside with another couple and their kids, our long-time friends. At some point we came across a huge fallen tree, and our friend L. climbed on it and started walking up. Our 11 year-old son followed him, but L. suddenly realized they won't be able to get down that easily. He turned back and asked our son to get away and down to give him room to get down, too. Our son stopped but didn't get out of his way at once. He was having fun, and we had to tell him 2 more times, and then he obeyed. After that L. got back down, and he suddenly grabbed our son from behind and threw him on the ground with all his might, yelling at him. We were stupefied. A 215lbs 38 year old man could have easily injured him. Fortunately he got up unscathed albeit very frightened. We are in deep shock, we never hit our children. Does anybody know if there are legal ways to teach the man a lesson - but not monetary? Is there any point in filing a police report? Thank you!
I am perplexed as to the reason that u have not called the police
and had him arrested for this criminal assault.

THAT is what the police are for.
That is what we all pay our taxes for.

Call the police as soon as possible.





David
OmSigDAVID
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 04:23 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
You wanting to jam up a guy with the state, a guy you called a friend, over THAT? Hopefully word gets around that this is how you treat people, and you get shunned. Your kid was not minding, and if my guess is right you have a habit of not dealing with your wayward children, and this time it was enough to provoke this guy. I would expect his explanation to be that your kid was causing a dangerous situation, and in the interest of trying to make sure that your brat of a child learned his lesson he went too far.......but given that is motives were pure the state should not cause him problems.
U argue that the perpetrator 's revenge
was justified. I reject your conclusion.

I also reject your tacit implication
that the victim had any duty to "mind" as u put it.





David
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  4  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 07:04 am
@odessitka,
I'm sticking with my alpha male theory. He's nice enough to get along with until something pulls his trigger and then he feels perfectly justified in lashing out in whatever manner he choices. It's not his fault in his mind and he's done nothing that requires an apology.

Someone very early on in this thread mentioned the animal kingdom as an example. You have the choice of hanging out with the gorilla or not. You've chosen not to. I'd probably make the same choice in your shoes. Hawkeye (our resident alpha male) has been making the case that the relationship with the other couple/family probably has been a net positive in your life and that allowances can/should be made for aberrant behaviors.

What I think you've determined is that this second event has tripped the balance from a net positive to a net negative and it simply isn't worth the anxiety of wondering when the next explosion will come. I don't blame you, particularly since this explosion was a hands-on assault of your son. As to your son feeling badly that the friendship has come to an end you can simply explain that you've learned that the man isn't the person you thought he was and that continuing the relationship would be toxic to you and your husband. Your son may find himself in his own toxic relationships someday and seeing that one can choose to walk away from them before any real damage is done is a good lesson to learn.
engineer
 
  4  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 07:54 am
@odessitka,
odessitka wrote:

That aside, and sinse it's not the purpose of this thread, I guess I just have to thank you for being that-guy-who-contradicts-everyone-and-the-common-sense-itself-and-by-doing-so-keeps-the-discussion-alive.

I don't think that is quite the case here. Everyone makes evaluations in relationships. How much good am I getting, how much bad, is the balance such that I want to continue this relationship? Hawk has repeatedly argued in many different threads that the balance should be different than where many people place it. For example, if your CEO is stealing from the company but he brings in lots of money, Hawk has argued that you retain the CEO. Here he argues that ten years of friendship potentially outweighs one incident, even one that would have a significant "multiplier" due to its seriousness. My multiplier is 100,000 for getting physical with my child, so if I knew someone for the last 274 years, I would consider letting this particular incident slide provided it didn't happen again. If I read his argument correctly, he is arguing for a lower multiplier as he has done on other threads involving one strike and your out type incidents. As usual, I disagree with him, but I do not think he is just trolling.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 08:05 am
@engineer,
Quote:
he is arguing for a lower multiplier as he has done on other threads involving one strike and your out type incidents.
Kinda...I think one strike and your out is for people we dont give a **** about, I owe a ten year friend more than that. It might still be that this relationship is over,but not before I go the extra mile to try to figure out what happened and try to get assurances that it will never happen again. The guy did not put a knife to this kid, he put his hands on him and somehow the boy ended up on the ground, this does not come close to a walk away without trying event, and even if it was I would STILL owemy friend and explanation....I would still have to talk to him face to face....I owe him that much.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 08:33 am
Odessitka and her husband are the only people who can decide whether it is appropriate to save their relationship with the other couple.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 08:50 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Odessitka and her husband are the only people who can decide whether it is appropriate to save their relationship with the other couple.
The collective has in interest in teaching individuals that one should attempt to exit long term close relationships with honor. Public disapproval upon refusing to do that is appropriate.
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 08:53 am
@hawkeye10,
You crack me up. On the one hand, you denigrate this mythic "collective" of yours, and on the other, you try to tell us what is appropriate for this putative "collective."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 08:56 am
@JPB,
2 incients is one too many.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 09:08 am
@cicerone imposter,
A very good point.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 10:38 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:

Odessitka and her husband are the only people who can decide whether it is appropriate to save their relationship with the other couple.
The collective has in interest in teaching individuals that one should attempt to exit long term close relationships with honor. Public disapproval upon refusing to do that is appropriate.
Public disapproval of failure to summon the POLICE
is appropriate, followed up by litigation in tort.





David
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jul, 2011 10:56 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

THAT is what the police are for.
That is what we all pay our taxes for.

Call the police as soon as possible.
That would cause massive amounts of grief for both parties with little to no benefits.

engineer wrote:

I don't think that is quite the case here. Everyone makes evaluations in relationships. How much good am I getting, how much bad, is the balance such that I want to continue this relationship? Hawk has repeatedly argued in many different threads that the balance should be different than where many people place it. For example, if your CEO is stealing from the company but he brings in lots of money, Hawk has argued that you retain the CEO. Here he argues that ten years of friendship potentially outweighs one incident, even one that would have a significant "multiplier" due to its seriousness. My multiplier is 100,000 for getting physical with my child, so if I knew someone for the last 274 years, I would consider letting this particular incident slide provided it didn't happen again. If I read his argument correctly, he is arguing for a lower multiplier as he has done on other threads involving one strike and your out type incidents. As usual, I disagree with him, but I do not think he is just trolling.
This is a good way to put it, yes. Personally, I mostly agree with him in this regard. A ten years long, quite close, relationship ending over one incident such as this, with little to none attempts to reach an understanding first? Sounds absurd. In fact, it becomes almost impossible to believe it was a close relationship.

wandeljw wrote:

Odessitka and her husband are the only people who can decide whether it is appropriate to save their relationship with the other couple.
True enough. We can give advice based on the bits of information she gave us, but nobody here is in position to make reliable decisions.
 

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