I wanted to start a new thread about this but I'll address it here.
I spoke with a dear friend of mine in Chicago the other night. She confessed that she's having an affair with a married man. This isn't the first time for her and she and I have argued about this is the past. She's 50 and lonely. The single man that she was interested in turned out to be a jerk and this guy, the married one, has been there for her. In her words, she's "taking what she can get." She's one of my closest friends, I love her dearly and always will but right now I could just strangle her.
I have a really hard time with this. I have ended two friendships because of this. I have STRONG feelings that it is morally wrong to sleep with a married man/ woman--- unless it is the person you are married to. The first time it happened I was in college. We were living together and I was horrified that she would sleep with the guy because his wife was pregnant- and it continued after the baby was born. I didn't say anything - really ever. I did find myself growing to hate her and being mean and rude to her. I did some things to her that I am pretty embarrassed about. I probably would have been better off telling her how I felt. This last time- well- it is my sister in law and I did tell her. I still feel pretty bad about the whole thing. But I feel worse for the unsuspecting wives at home. I know that some of the people she slept with either were IV drug users, are known to have herpies and she told me that she usually doesnt use condoms. I really dont care about the looser guy but WOW do I feel bad for the wives.
This reminds me of a little something from a while back...
http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7650
I also separate promiscuity from using. Or more complexly, people using each other in an acknowledged way, even silently. I know that edges to iffy, so I'll back off of silently, it is not only a good idea to have verbal understanding but very important.
Sex without regard for future lifebuilding, is or at least can be, wonderful, fantastic, lifetime memorable, given that various denouements wouldn't happen, only the good ones. Could be called pure sex, but I would break that down too, to the sheer animal and that with real enjoyment of who the person is. Well, there are a lot of degrees here.
I have been reading Nuala O'Faolain's books, not for the sexual stories initially, but because I was interested in her life as a contemporary (to me) irish woman. She was promiscuous and still has a full barrel of integrity. She is not quite me nor I quite her, but I understand her.
Sex is particularly exciting, as countless books and movies have shown and they mirror real life, when it is set in a precarious situation, forbidden, in a strange or perhaps ordinary but in public view place, is bounded by societal stricture, has someone who shouldn't know in the next room, breaks accepted social norms.
Much has also been written of the pitfalls that occur when people who have been exhilarated by clandestine sex actually set up lives together, and begin to annoy each other in multilple ways.
Long term love. real regard of the loved one, is good, lives together a treasure. I won't knock down the first, am the fan myself, it is all very human, but I really value the second.
beebo wrote:How do you feel about someone who is promiscuous. Say, a friend- I am not refering to my sister in law- just generally. Would that change your friendship?
No.
(Unless there's this what here was called "user" thing going on, but thats really a separate topic).
---
As for people who have a relationship with a married (wo)man - I'm sorry, but it's the husband's or wive's obligation to stay faithful, its not the task of the third person who falls in love with him/her to look out for that. If for whatever reason the spouse does not have this commitment, it is entirely his or her responsibility or guilt. (S)he's the one who went down the aisle.
Too often the myth of the "evil temptress" who seduced a loving and dutiful husband into adultery. Thats just a bad excuse. If a spouse commits adultery, its for reasons all his/her own - good or bad. Sometimes new, better partnerships evolve from affairs. Mostly however I guess an affair with a married person means you're in for a long time of ultimately frustrated expectation. (Seen it). So nothing much to recommend there. But I wouldnt condemn it either.
I am not saying "evil temptress". I think they are both equally culpable.
I agree, nimh. I've had that discussion a few times ("Evil temptress/ho/skank!" "What about your HUSBAND??") and what I've seen is that the women who want to stay married to their husband even though he had an affair are more comfortable shifting their anger and blame to the third party -- it's all her fault, she's out of the picture, she's never coming around again, so the family can get back to normal.
Of course, that (almost) never happens.
Gotta disagree with you,nimh. It takes two to commit adultery.
eoe
If you are not married, you can not commit adultery. The only one committing adultery is the person who is married and has an affair. The "third" person may well (and usually is) monogamous.
beebo
I didnt mean to imply you said anything about "evil temptresses". What I meant was that the image of the "evil temptress" is a deeply-rooted, long-abused one, which has mostly served to deflect the guilt for adultery away from the man who actually cheated on his wife - towards a woman who merely loved the man she loved.
IMHO, they are not "equally culpable". The spouse who has an affair betrays his partner, and betrays the vow he has taken at marriage. The person (s)he has an affair with has done none of this. (S)he is not responsible for the spouse's vows, and (s)he can only respect them in as far as the spouse respects them her/himself.
One could say, why get involved with someone who apparently doesn't respect the vows (s)he's taken - it will most probably only lead to bad things - and that would be solid advise. But that's something different from the condemnation thing you seem to be talking about.
Your theory, nimh, just doesn't hold. For me, it's like you're saying that when two people commit a murder, the one who slits the victims' throat is guilty but the one who held the victim down while their throat was being slit is not.
If your lover is married and you know they are married, you're doing wrong.
What I have seen in my life is that sometimes an affair will "save" a marriage. In a miserable marriage, the outlet of the affair will sometimes make it easier for the spouse to deal with the marriage.
I do believe that this is why women often have affairs with marrried men who never seem to be able to break the relationship with the spouse, in order to marry the mistress. In effect, the mistress is keeping her lover's marriage together.
I am not making a value judgment on this, but I have seen it happen too many times.
I have no respect for married people who have affairs. I don't think that makes them promiscuous.
IMO, people who are in relationships with people who are married may not be smart, but they are not responsible for the success or failure of the marriage.
Being sexually promiscuous is a different can of worms from being a user.
Re. adultery, I'm always thrown back to the Nina Simone song "The Other Woman"
Jesse Mae Robinson
The other woman finds time to manicure her nails
The other woman is perfect where her rival fails
And she's never seen with pin curls in her hair
The other woman enchantes her clothes with French perfume
The other woman keeps fresh cut flowers in each room
There are never toys that's scattered everywhere
And when her baby comes to call
He'll find her waiting like a lonesome queen
Cos when she's by his side
It's such a change from old routine
But the other woman will always cry herself to sleep
The other woman will never have his love to keep
And as the years go by the other woman
Will spend her life alone
*****
To me, promiscuity is not wrong in itself - having multiple sexual partners is not morally problematic, provided:
1. No one is lied to (including yourself)
2. No one expects more than they get
3. No one is put in danger of contracting a disease (esp. HIV)
The more partners one has, the more difficult these standards are to keep. Therein lies the problem.
Many of my friends are more promiscuous than I am - and I think there's some sense in one female friend's comment:
"You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince".
Personally, I'm happy to have sex with someone who knows it's just that - a physical activity which can be great fun (sport sex is a good description, I think) but would greatly prefer to find an emotional connection with my sexual partner...it makes the experience so much more complex and beautiful.
What I can't stand is power games and inequality. The pro's or semi-pro's, referred to above, or their equivalently emotionally-needy cousins are my idea of a complete nightmare!
I try to follow the golden rule- you know - do onto others as you would have done on to you. I also really believe that what goes around comes around- which is basically the same thing.
However, if you are one of the people who believe in the Bible- the comandment says something like- do not covet thy neighbors wife- NOT do not commit adultery.
Saying that the not married person is not doing anything wrong is like---
Say someone broke into your house and stole all of your things. The theif sold all of those things- to people that knew (because he told them) that the things were stolen. Those people are commiting crimes themselves. The crime is not the same as the theif but still it is a crime.
Lola, I think it was eoe you were addressing your post to, not Beth.
Same here, Lola. You want to ask those you know dating married people what possible benefits there are in that and sometimes you do but other times, it's just not a discussion that you want to get into because the subject is dicey, to say the least, and your relationship with that person is more important than beating them over the head because they don't see it the same way you do.
On Judgement Day, we're all on our own. It's as simple as that for me.
No, screwing a married person is not on the same level as murder and I wholeheartedly agree that sometimes, circumstances outweigh right and wrong. My father used to say 'conditions create conduct' and I believe that is true. If your children are starving then you need to steal a loaf of bread. If your man or your woman is attacked and you have a weapon, then you need to use it. No question. But free adults have a choice in who we have sex with. You're not pushed into a corner or forced into it (hopefully). There's choice. Choosing to sleep with a married person is a very selfish act, in my opinion. And it's not a good thing under any circumstances.
I agree with the others who said that the person who is sleeping with a married person is not the one to blame. They are not the ones that said "I do" and are not obligated to them. It is the married person who is obligated to their spouse and no one else.
I personally have had a few affairs with married men in my time and as much as I'm not proud of it, I'm not ashamed of it either. I did nothing to lead these men on, so it was their problem.
