0
   

Obunga: Palestine must be based on 67 borders........

 
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 01:12 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Gob1 said

"I'm not so sure about that. If we were to have washed our hands of the matter the Israelis would likely have still won the 1973 War with Egypt and Syria, and, had we not stopped (then) general Ariel Sharon's advance to Cairo there might have been even more lasting destruction of Egypt's ability to resist. Indeed even in 1967 the Israelis came very close to taking Damascus - there was nothing to stop them after they took the Golan except their likely belief they could not long hold it."

You're quite right America was acting purely on humanitarian grounds. It had absolutely nothing to do with the possible involvement of the Soviet Union.

My point was that Israel has a very capable military and has had, over the period of time which we have been discussing, a very considerasble ability to affect events on its own - without our help. I made no assertion about humanitarian motivations - that's your construct.

I'll readily agree that the possible actions of the Soviet Union were a preoccupation of the United States throughout the Cold War, and during the 1973 war as well. Overall, I think we did a pretty good job of getting ourselves (and much of the world) through an historical confrontation of political systems, and doing so without a global catastrophe - not perfectly done, but better than the historical precedents.

izzythepush wrote:

I don't know what it is that makes you feel so inadequate, is it because your sweetheart left you for a European? Is it because despite America's size and wealth they do not have as profound an influence on the world today as a tiny island off the coast of Europe had in the C19. Or is it that for someone who professes to know so much about history you're jealous of someone who can drive a few miles up the road and see Stonehenge. That's so old it's not even historic, it's pre-historic. This is the real cradle of civilisation not Mesopotamia, that was the kindergarden. It's so very ironic isn't it? You go on and on about history, but you have so very little of your own. No wonder you feel so inadequate, like a eunuch obsessed with pornography.


It appears to me that you are reaching pretty far down in your mental knapsack for that stuff. I suppose we can all be characterized by the tools we try to use to prop ourselves up.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 01:19 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Who here is the windbag?


Quote:

Israel, the Holocaust, and Anti-Semitism

Noam Chomsky

...

... because the role of the United States during the Holocaust was awful, before and during. They didn't act to save Jews, and they could have in many respects. The role of the Zionist organization is not very pretty either. In the late 1940s there were plenty of displaced persons in the Jewish DP camps. Some survived. It remained awful, they stayed in the DP camps, in fact, for a while they were dying at almost the same rate they were under the Nazis.

Many of those people, if they had been given a chance, surely would have wanted to come to the United States. There are debates about how many, but it's just unimaginable that if they'd been given a chance they wouldn't have wanted to come here. They didn't. A tiny scattering came.

There was an immigration bill, the Stratton bill, which I think admitted about 400,000 people, if I remember, to the United States, very few Jews among them. Plenty of Nazis, incidentally, straight out of their SS uniforms. The reason that bill passed, I think it was 1947, was that it was the beginning of the Cold War and priority was being given to basically the Nazis, because we were resurrecting them all over the world, a lot of them were brought in, a lot of Nazi war criminals, and others, but very few Jews. That's not a very pretty sight.

You say, during the war you could have given some argument, not an acceptable argument, but you could have given at least a not ridiculous argument that you had to fight the war and not worry about the people being sent to the gas chambers, but after the war you couldn't give any argu- ment.

It was a matter of saving the survivors, and we didn't do it. I should say the Zionist organization didn't support it either, they didn't even lobby for the bill. The only Jewish organizations that lobbied for the admission of Jewish refugees to the United States were the non-Zionist or the anti-Zionist organizations. The reason was that they wanted to send them off to Palestine. Whether they wanted to go there or not is another story, the same matter being relived today, incidentally, with the Russian emigres. The Zionist organization wants to force them to go to Israel. Most of them, especially from the European parts of Russia, want to come to the United States, and all sorts of pressures are being brought to bear to prevent that. It's kind of a reenactment at a less hideous level of the same story. I suppose there's some element of guilt, certainly over the Holocaust and maybe over the post-war matter.

Besides that, the Jewish community has changed socially and economically. It's now become substantial, not huge in numbers, but given its numbers it's a substantial part of the dominant privileged elite groups in every part of the society -- professional, economic, political, etc. It's not like the anti-Semitic stereotype, they don't own the corporations, but relative to the numbers they're very influential, particularly in the ideological system, lots of writers, editors, etc. and that has an effect.

Furthermore, I think it's changed because of what's happened since 1967. In 1967 Israel won a dramatic military victory, demonstrated its military power, in fact, smashed up the entire Arab world, and that won great respect. A lot of Americans, especially privileged Americans, love violence and want to be on the side of the guy with the gun, and here was a powerful, violent state that smashed up its enemies and demonstrated that it was the dominant military power in the Middle East, put those Third World upstarts in their place. This was particularly dramatic because that was 1967, a time when the United States was having only minimal success in carrying out its invasion of by then all of Indochina, and it's well worth remembering that elite opinion, including liberal opinion, overwhelmingly supported the war in Vietnam and was quite disturbed by the incapacity of the United States to win it, at least at the level they wanted. Israel came along and showed them how to do it, and that had a symbolic effect. Since then it has been presenting itself, with some justice, as the Sparta of the Middle East, a militarily advanced, technologically compe- tent, powerful society. That's the kind of thing we like. It also became a strategic asset of the United States; one of the reasons why the United States maintains the military confrontation is to assure that it's a dependable, reliable ally that will do what we want, like, say, support genocide in Guatemala or whatever, and that also increases the respect for Israel and with it tends to diminish anti-Semitism. I suppose that's a factor.

QUESTION: But you've pointed out that as long as U.S. state interests are being served and preserved, Israel will be favored, but the moment that those interests...

CHOMSKY: That's right, it'll be finished, in fact, anti-Semitism will shoot up. Apart from the moral level, it's a very fragile alliance on tactical grounds.

QUESTION: So what happens to the moral commitment, the concern for justice in the Jewish state and all that -- out the window?

CHOMSKY: On the part of whom?

QUESTION: The United States.

CHOMSKY: There's no concern for justice and there never was. States don't have a concern for justice. States don't act on moral grounds.

QUESTION: Except on a rhetorical level.

CHOMSKY: On a rhetorical level, they all do, even Nazi Germany. On the actual level, they never do. They are instruments of power and violence, that's true of all states; they act in the interests of the groups that dominate them, they spout the nice rhetorical line, but these are just givens of the international system.

http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm


izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 01:39 pm
@georgeob1,
gob1 said

Instead of responding to the central point you have indulged in historical distractions, including the familiar ones about our (very successful) revolution in 1776 and criticisms of my responses, based on their supposed ancient irrelevance to the issue at hand (an oddly hypocritical combination, I think).

Who here is the windbag?

Well you bloody started it. We do have quite a significant Jewish population in the UK the leader of the Labour party, Ed Miliband is Jewish. The opinion of British Jewry does not seem to be as fervently pro-Israel as it is your side of the pond. Labour MP Gerald Kaufman is a good example of a prominant British Jew who is very critical of Israel. This thread was supposed to be about Israel today, and historical references should really be used to inform the debate, not start mud-slinging. The simple fact of the matter today is that Israel can flout international law purely because of American aid and the veto in the security council.

I think if more Americans knew what was actually happening in the occupied territories this support would not be so forthcoming. I agree with you about the end of the mandate. In 1948 though, Britain had pretty much bankrupted itself fighting the war. We had worse rationing than during the war, we owed a fortune to America, which was only paid off during Blair's premiership. All of the US dollars that went into rebuilding Europe didn't come our way. The Israeli terrorist organisation the Irgun had blown up the King David Hotel. British troops had been kidnapped, tortured and executed. Public opinion didn't want the loss of any more British soldiers, especially not fighting Jews, after everything that had happened in Germany. I'm not saying that any of this excuses the way the British Mandate ended but it does put it into context. If anything, it shows you should never give in to terrorists, negotiate by all means, but don't just give in.

If you really are interested in the British Mandate in Palestine there is an excellent Channel 4 drama called The Promise. It's about a sergeant in the paratroop regiment who liberates Belsen, he then serves during the Mandate. Years later when he is dying in hospital his granddaughter finds his diary just before she flies out to Israel to stay with the family of a British/Israeli schoolfriend who is about to do her military service, just before the intifada. There are flashbacks back and forth throughout. It has been meticulously researched, and as far as I'm aware there's no mention of the Americans at all.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 02:39 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Well you bloody started it. We do have quite a significant Jewish population in the UK the leader of the Labour party, Ed Miliband is Jewish. The opinion of British Jewry does not seem to be as fervently pro-Israel as it is your side of the pond. Labour MP Gerald Kaufman is a good example of a prominant British Jew who is very critical of Israel. This thread was supposed to be about Israel today, and historical references should really be used to inform the debate, not start mud-slinging. The simple fact of the matter today is that Israel can flout international law purely because of American aid and the veto in the security council.


No you started it with your (still) repeated - and utterly out of context - references to American sponsorship of Israel. The fact is that Israel is the creation of European Jews who fled both the Holocaust and pan-European rejection of their return following the horrors of WWII. There is serious moral culpability here that all of Europe bears, and, despite the picturesque banhoff & grotesque memorial in Berlin, hasn't yet resolved or even acknowledged. I respect your acknowledgment of the events of 1948 and what led to it, but the fact remains that, despite the very real post war economnic strains, Britain retained the ability to act decisively in its self interest in the region through the events of 1952 and 1956.

In a very large sense the world is still working out the awful consequences of the European follies of WWI (and the "peace" that followed) - the scourge of Soviet Communism, WWII, and the Muslim uprising/reawakening are all consequences of it and the colonial expansion attendant to it. That past is unhappily still very relevant today, though Europe and Europeans seem very inclined to forget it and perhaps to assume they have been reborn & washed clean with the EU or something like that.

It fell to the United States to take a major role in dealing with all these consequences. Our actions have been by no means perfect or withour error, inappropriate self- interest or pride. However, compared to the standards set by the former European powers they have been exemplary.

I found European expectations that we must take a leading role in the suppression of mass murder and ethnic cleansing in in their very midst in Bosnia, following the disintegration of Yugoslavia (something you expressed as well), to be outrageous and appalingly hypocritical in view of their then decade-long boasting about an independent European community. I believe that is something you and others could well consider from our perspective, if for no other purpose than to better see yourselves.

I believe similar ideas apply to the matter of Israel and Palestine.

As you can no doubt see, I have very little patience with European criticism, or expressions of schadenfreude with respect to the supposed decline in our power.

izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 02:54 pm
@georgeob1,
So are you maintaining that America does not give Billions of dollars in aid to Israel, and that it does not use its veto in Israel's favour in the Security Council?
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 04:03 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
However, compared to the standards set by the former European powers they have been exemplary.


You don't really believe that ****, do you, Gob? How does a guy who helped bomb innocent Vietnamese back into the stone age come up with lines like this?

Quote:
There is serious moral culpability here that all of Europe bears, and, despite the picturesque banhoff & grotesque memorial in Berlin, hasn't yet resolved or even acknowledged.


Damn near choked upon reading this one. Unsurprisingly, 'gross hypocrisy' leapt to mind. Same ole, same ole, eh, Gob.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 04:28 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

So are you maintaining that America does not give Billions of dollars in aid to Israel, and that it does not use its veto in Israel's favour in the Security Council?
Not at all. We give billions to both Egypt and to Israel - part of the deal brokered in the 1980 Peace arrangement betweeen those countries. Do you believe our support of that treaty was inappropriate under the circumstances that existed then?

I'll agree that our aid to Israel is more than they need, and very strongly influenced by well-organized political supporters of Israel here - something that, for obvious reasons, no longer exists in Europe. I also believe its influence, though still strong, is waning fairly rapidly. We have indeed used our veto to support Israel in the UN Security Council. However, more often than not, your country votes with us on these matters.

Do you believe the nations of Europe - from France to Poland have met all their moral obligations to the Jews they saw slaughtered and to those who survived. -- and whose return they rejected (and who then fled to Israel) ?

I also don't think much of the UN as an institution. It's track record of hypocrisy & venality is quite impressive. It certainly is not a source of international law.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 04:39 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

I do not believe the goal of Islamist terrorism is l'il ole Israel. In my readings, the goal is a world-wide Caliphate. Nothing less. Oh, yes, and they want all the lands back that they once occupied. Israel is just small potatoes.


Whoa Dude! What if someone said that the goal of Jewish colonialism was not just Israel, but a Jewish dominated world government.

Actually, people saying this. It's just like you took anti-Semitic literature and substituted "Jew" for "Muslim".

This is some scary ****. I was hoping that in the 21st century we would be past this.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:04 pm
@georgeob1,
You talk about giving money to Egypt as well as Israel, like they're polar opposites and cancel each other out. They don't, they strengthen each other. Up until very recently America wasn't giving money to the people of Egypt, they were giving money to a dictator. How much of that money do you think made it's way back to the USA by means of arms deals? If Egypt has signed a peace deal with Israel why do they need such a big army? I think recent events have shown us why.

A dictator like Mubarak doesn't have the welfare of his own people at heart, let alone the welfare of the Palestinians. The full extent to how he brutalised his own people is only now becoming apparant. He brutalised the Palestinians as well, by enforcing the blockade on Gaza. This blockade of a war damaged strip of land is as arbitrary as it is cruel. Things that are allowed, and things that are banned change on an almost daily basis. Children will be allowed crayons, but no paper to write on. What foodstuffs are allowed changes as well, drinking chocolate and powdered milk are often subject to arbitrary bans. Whilst Mubarak continued to do what he was paid for and, also in his own interests, maintain the blockade on the Egyptian border, Israel could always claim the were not acting unilaterally on Gaza. Now the people are going to have a say in how things are run, the blockade is one of the first things that will be threatened.

Basically what needs to be decided is, what is more important, Western values or Western Interests? In the case of Bahrain the West has kept shamefully quiet.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:12 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
He retired, did he?
You tell me...you are the one who said
Quote:
John Stockwell was a high ranking CIA
Perhaps I should think he wrote after dying ?

Quote:
what you might understand creates too much cognitive dissonance
I bet you laughed your head off at your own hypocrisy as you wrote that ... Very Happy ...it is rather funny coming from you .

Quote:
to stick to the facts instead of making things up as you go along.
You mean like the USA is responsible for all war crimes ever, everywhere...obviously other nationalities cant commit war crimes...it doesnt suit your agenda .
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:16 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I do have celtic blood in me
Perhaps the result of a rape by an invader.....you are aware the native populations still exist in Australia and the Americas, right ? That they make up the vast majority below the USA border ?

Quote:
You imply I'm racist
Oh...I didnt know....I thought I implied you were selectively stupid .

Quote:
What do you think about drawing up an independent Palestine based on 1967 borders?
What do you think about drawing up an independent USSR based on 1967 borders?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:18 pm
@JTT,
Now the USA is responsible for the holocaust.... Laughing

Tell us...why do you hate so many people ?

Why do you make excuses for the war criminals and the mass murderers ? Is it so you will continue to enjoy their exploits ?
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:21 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
How does a guy who helped bomb innocent Vietnamese back into the stone age
How does someone equally responsible blame everyone else but themselves ?

Quote:
Damn near choked upon reading this one. Unsurprisingly, 'gross hypocrisy' leapt to mind. Same ole, same ole, eh, Gob.
But you couldnt maker a factual comment worthy of a two year old...facts put you in a spin eh ? In damage control mode are we ?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:22 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
You tell me...you are the one who said


I should tell you?!

It's customary to read the information provided if one wants to participate in a discussion. I'm quite certain that you have not come anywhere close to exhibiting just how dumb, just how ignorant you really are.

Spendius was right. You're way more than a couple bricks short of a load.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:31 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
I should tell you?!
Yes, thats how it works...you say he isnt retired .

Quote:
It's customary to read the information provided if one wants to participate in a discussion.
You mean only one side like you do...

Why do you vehemently hate 300 million people and blame them for everything ?

You are mentally ill .
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:44 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
You mean only one side like you do...


On the contrary. I've read every one of your source offerings. And I gotta tell you it's been hard keeping up given how just how many you've offered.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:49 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
I gotta tell you it's been hard keeping up
Yes, I know...you poor thing .

Quote:
I've read every one of your source offerings.
Are you implying that you have offered source quotes from Hitler, Mao, Ho, Pol, et al ?

I thought you offered quotes from leftist hippies like yourself...quoting hateful loonies like you who love war crimes is hardly to be commended to me .
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 05:59 pm
@Ionus,
Nope, I'm telling you that you have never offered a source for any of your psychotic rants. But, as I also said, there are no sources for psychotic rants.

Look, Spendius told you as gently as he could - you're just not right upstairs. You confirm this with practically every post you make.

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 06:03 pm
@Ionus,
It seems they understand nothing but want their sneering and snotty remarks to be taken seriously . A criticism of people should be based on human nature . A criticism of religion should be based on theology . I criticism of God is pointless and illogical . Yet they throw anything and everything into the mix, not realising how stupid it sounds .

http://able2know.org/topic/141106-275#post-4616173
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 May, 2011 06:04 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Look, Spendius told you as gently as he could - you're just not right upstairs.
And you have been told by almost everyone who posts here apart from other unwashed drug taking hippy USA haters like yourself . I am telling you that you are mentally ill . Seriously .

Quote:
I'm telling you that you have never offered a source
I.m telling you that you have never offered a source for war crimes . You have offered opinion by USA haters like yourself . When you go to big pre-school you will learn more about all this...hopefully your English will improve too....will you be offering a source to prove I am a war criminal ?

Quote:
You confirm this with practically every post you make.
Oh, you mean like ....

the USA is a war criminal
the USA is a war criminal
the USA is a war criminal

polly want a cracker ?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Israel's Reality - Discussion by Miller
THE WAR IN GAZA - Discussion by Advocate
Israel's Shame - Discussion by BigEgo
Eye On Israel/Palestine - Discussion by IronLionZion
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 11/02/2024 at 03:32:58