0
   

Obunga: Palestine must be based on 67 borders........

 
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 02:46 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110519/ap_on_re_us/us_obama_mideast_palestinians_1

Quote:
WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is endorsing the Palestinians' demand for their future state to be based on the borders that existed before the 1967 Middle East war, in a move that will likely infuriate Israel. Israel says the borders of a Palestinian state have to be determined through negotiations....


The really big mystery of Judaism: The question of why any Jew who was not certifiably insane, would ever vote for a demoKKKrat for anything.


Well, to be fair, Israel has been ignoring Obama's anti-Semitism from the beginning. I imagine they'll just continue to do so.

The American voters aren't going to let Obama do anything to actually harm Israel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 02:47 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
It's simple, Gunga, but I'm not at all surprised that it's beyond you. There are some Jews who are honest and appreciate fairness, just as there are non-Jews who are honest and appreciate fairness.

Then there are folks like you.


Obama's anti-Semitism hardly amounts to fairness.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 02:56 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
What's important about this is it's a dealmaker.


Just the opposite. If Obama had not already made peace talks a non-starter with his previous round of anti-Semitism, this act here surely would have done so.



izzythepush wrote:
He's saying sort out the borders first, we'll talk about Jerusalem and refugees later.


No, what Obama is saying is, instead of Israel giving concessions at the negotiation table in exchange for concessions from the Palestinians, Israel should just keep giving the Palestinians concessions for free while getting nothing in return.

And the answer to Obama's request is "no". The peace process is done for this generation.

Try again in another decade (and next time, don't start off the peace process with a bunch of anti-Semitism).



izzythepush wrote:
This has probably got more to do with the Palestinians getting the UN General Assembly to recognise the State of Palestine.


A powerless body passing a meaningless resolution.

If I were Israel, I'd respond to the resolution by forcibly annexing everything west of "the wall". But I expect that Israel will just ignore it as the non-event that it is.



izzythepush wrote:
Palestine's always been the elephant in the room. If you don't sort that out you'll never get rid of the threat of Islamist terrorism further afield.


Nonsense. Terrorists don't kill because Israel defends themselves from Palestinian aggression.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 02:59 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Islamist terrorism is just a very small fraction of the Moslem world in general. However, most of the world believes in a free Palestine. As long as America continues to let Israel run roughshod over the Palestianians, the Osama Bin Ladens of this world have got their 'proof' of the 'Great Satan's' crusade.


Preventing the Palestinians from murdering people is running roughshod over them?



izzythepush wrote:
Really though, Islamist terrorists are the small potatoes, their actual capability and influence has been grossly overexagerrated. The Arab Spring has shown protesters motivated by Nationalism and Democracy. Some pipe dream of a pan arab caliphate has had nothing to do with it. Israel has always claimed to be the only democracy in the area, (conveniently forgetting about Lebanon and the Palestinians). They can't do that any more, this makes America's position a lot trickier.


Our position is fine: Sell Israel lots of weapons, and stand ready to annihilate any threat that Israel can't handle themselves (should such a threat ever materialize).

It's a nice straightforward position. We simply help the good guys.



izzythepush wrote:
America shouldn't vote to recognise a sovereign Palestinian state within 1967 borders in order to diminish the threat of Islamist terrorists. America should do it because it's the right thing to do.


It would be the wrong thing to do. If the recognition were actually valid, it would be rewarding Palestinian intransigence and refusal to negotiate by yet again giving them concessions for free while getting nothing in return from them. And it would be rightfully ignored by Israel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 03:08 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
I do enjoy reading the words of an hypocritical Brit pontificating about how the United States screwed up the Middle east.


That's a bit harsh. I know you're referring to the things the UK did when they controlled the area. But still, why so testy?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 03:16 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Israel is brutally occupying Palestine.


Oh nonsense. Israel is merely defending themselves from Palestinians who refuse to make peace.



izzythepush wrote:
Israel is no different from apartheid South Africa.


That is blatant anti-Semitism. Enough with the blood libel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 03:17 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Well there's nothing hypocritical about you, having stolen the land of your own indiginous population, and carried out a programme of extermination, you're now helping the Israeli colonists do the same to theirs.


The Israelis ARE the indigenous population. It's the Arabs who illegally invaded and settled in someone else's country.

And no one is carrying out a program of extermination here. All Israel is doing is preventing the Palestinians from murdering innocent people.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 03:26 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The savages are the IDF.


The IDF does not run around trying to intentionally kill innocent people.

The Palestinians murder innocent people every chance they get.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 03:39 am
Quite a lot since I went to bed. I live in today, and to go on about what happened in the British Isles over a thousand just shows the level of maturity of the debate. What America has been doing in Vietnam, Nicaragua and the whole of Latin America is a lot more recent.

It's very easy to claim that someone is motivated by racism as opposed to any feeling for the Palestinian people. That stops you addressing what's really going on is the bratal occupation. If there'sa any 'blood-libel' in calling Israel an apartheid state the libel is towards the Afrikaans. Palestinians are subject to daily humiliation as they just try to go about their daily lives. Constantly stopped at checkpoints in their own country by an illegal occupying force, spat at by fascist settlers. The way the settlers behave in Hebron is no different to the way the brownshirts behaved in Germany in the 1930's.

I cannot understand how anyone can see the brutal suffering of a gentle people like the Palestinians and not feel sympathy.

gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 05:27 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I cannot understand how anyone can see the brutal suffering of a gentle people like the Palestinians and not feel sympathy.


You think teaching their (palisavages) children to be murderers and psychopaths from the day they're born might have something to do with it?

http://www.palwatch.org/

No other nation on Earth would put up with that sort of **** for ten seconds. I mean, what the hell do you think would happen were Mexicans to start lobbing mortar rounds and rockets over the border into San Antonia and how long do you think it would take to happen???

Quote:
...gentle people like the Palestinians...


I mean if I ever were to tell a lie that grotesque I'd anticipate to be blasted straight into hell within five seconds by a bolt of lightning.
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 05:32 am
@georgeob1,
georgebob said,

'However, if that appeases your guilt and shame after the lasting effects of the mischief your country has done in the past 100 years in pursuit of empire to create precisely the problems you were citing in the Middle East for which you were so hypocritically chastizing the United States, then I am pleased for you ... contemptous, but pleased.'

It's not easy coming to terms with your colonial past. We've had the Bloody Sunday inquiry in which British paratroopers were found to have gunned down unarmed Nationalist protesters. David Cameron probably didn't expect one of his first acts as prime minister to apologise about our colonial past. You seem to think reconciliation, and coming to terms with the wrongs your country did is hypocrisy.

The only reason you are going on about this, is because Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians is indefensible, so you change the subject. America will not be the most powerful country on Earth for much longer, and you too will have to come to terms with your own country's shameful past. At the moment you seem to be quite proud of what you did to your own indiginous population, shifting all the blame onto others. If anyone is deserving of contempt it is you. Anyway if you're so concerned with hypocrisy you may find the following to be of interest.

When the South African prime minister John Vorster made a state visit to Israel in April 1976, it began with a tour of Yad Vashem, Israel's major Holocaust memorial, where the late Yitzhak Rabin invited the onetime Nazi collaborator, unabashed racist and white supremacist to pay homage to Jews murdered in the Holocaust.

Compared, say, to routine outcries from organized Jewry over often even mild whiffs of Holocaust controversy, no less remarkable was the bland equanimity both Israeli and diaspora Jews also displayed toward the Vorster visit.

Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi recalls [The Israeli Connection, Random House: Toronto, 1987, p.x]:
"For most Israelis, the Vorster visit was just another state visit by a foreign leader. It did not draw much attention. Most Israelis did not even remember his name, and did not see anything unusual, much less surreal in the scene [an old Nazi diehard invited to 'mourn' the victims at a Holocaust memorial]: Vorster was just another visiting dignitary being treated to the usual routine."
The old Nazi collaborator was graciously welcomed by his hosts. The South African leader left Israel four days later -- after signing a number of friendship treaties between the Jewish state and South Africa's racist, apartheid regime. A denouement Leslie and Andrew Cockburn describe in Dangerous Liaison [Stoddart Publishing: Toronto, 1991, pp. 299 - 300]:
"The old Nazi sympathizer came away with bilateral agreements for commercial, military, and nuclear cooperation that would become the basis for future relations between the two countries."
Leaving unmentioned Vorster's wartime internment for supporting Germany, Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin, hailed the South African premier as a force for freedom and made no mention of Vorster's past as he toured the Jerusalem memorial to the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. At a state banquet, Rabin toasted "the ideals shared by Israel and South Africa: the hopes for justice and peaceful coexistence". Both countries, he said, faced "foreign-inspired instability and recklessness".

izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 05:42 am
@Ionus,
Ionus said

Will you be giving Britain back to the Scots, Picts, Celts, Welsh, Romans, Normans, Vikings, Angles, Saxons or Jutes ? Or did you exterminate those when they were the indigenous population ?

Again an attempt to shift the focus of the argument. Ireland and Scotland have been bleeding their populations for the last three hundred years, and so many of them came to England. Like most English I have a real mixture in my DNA, Scots, Irish (Both Protestant and Catholic), Anglo-Saxon, and Norse, along with a drop of Spanish. So I can claim all of these disparate ethnic groups as my ancestors? What land do you suggest should be returned to me? As we're all in the EU now I think I'd rather stay put.

eurocelticyankee
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 06:45 am
@gungasnake,
Quote:
No other nation on Earth would put up with that sort of **** for ten seconds. I mean, what the hell do you think would happen were Mexicans to start lobbing mortar rounds and rockets over the border into San Antonia and how long do you think it would take to happen???


Just as a matter of interest, if the US was doing to the Mexicans what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, do you not think there would be rockets being fired over the border?. DOH.
Or the other way around if Mexico was doing to the USofA what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, do you not think there would be patriot Americans (like your good self) willing to risk their lives and resist and fight back, maybe even by lobbing a few rockets at them?.
gungasnake
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:23 am
@eurocelticyankee,
Quote:
Just as a matter of interest, if the US was doing to the Mexicans what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, do you not think there would be rockets being fired over the border?. DOH.


The ONLY thing Israel is "doing-to(TM)" the palisavages is trying to protect its own citizens FROM them. One thing I've noticed about bullies and assholes over a long period of time is that they all excel at accusing other people, particularly their own victims, of doing the kind of **** which THEY do...

http://pajamasmedia.com/

Quote:

Projection: Accusing Israel of Its Attackers’ Crimes
Lost in the debate over CUNY's granting playwright Tony Kushner an honorary degree because of his anti-Israel remarks is whether his accusations are true.

If Israel is guilty of massacres, rapes. and mass expulsions — ethnic cleansing — than why should anyone object if someone says it?

Tony Kushner cites an Israeli historian, Professor Benny Morris, as his source for charging that Israel was “born in sin”; Morris therefore is at the core of this controversy. Although Morris accuses the IDF of massacres, rapes, atrocities, and expulsions, he has recently attempted to explain this as necessary in order for the survival of the state. After all, most countries commit such crimes, or worse. But are his charges true, and if so, why blame Kushner and others for believing them and using them to attack Israel? (Read more on the recent Kushner controversy here.)

Ethnic cleansing of Jews is official policy in Arab countries; it was never advocated or practiced by Jews against Arabs. In 2005, the Sharon government carried out an ethnic cleansing of Jews from the Gaza Strip and it is advocated by some in Judea and Shomron.

Ethnic cleansing is central to the PLO and Hamas charters, broadcast daily in PA-sponsored media, taught in schools, and preached in mosques. Jews are not allowed to live in PA-controlled territory and nearly all Jews who lived in Arab countries were slaughtered or expelled.

Ethnic cleansing and genocide are part and parcel of Palestinianism, Islamism (like the Muslim Brotherhood), and the Arab war against Israel.

Charging Jews with this offense reflects a psychological twist – projection — in which the perpetrator accuses his victim of provocations and the crime instead of accepting his own responsibility. Morris provides the historical “facts” to legitimize charging Israel with ethnic cleansing, massacres, and atrocities; his “evidence,” however, is questionable and his narrative spurious.

Morris charges that Israeli troops committed a “major atrocity in the (Arab) village of Hule,” in which they “rounded up local males and POWs, crowded them into a house, shot them and blew up the building” (1948, p.344). His sources? A secondary, far-left newspaper article written 30 years later and a book published in 2000.

Even more surprising is his use of unreliable secondary sources and unverified Arab claims for accusations of “massacres” and “atrocities,” and his admission that he had no access to crucial material where investigations were carried out.

More problematic than what Morris contends is what he omits: that given the opportunity, the Arab forces would have wiped out the entire Jewish community in Israel.

If ethnic cleansing was Israeli policy and practice in 1948, it seems to have been forgotten in many instances, and especially in 1967, when the government prevented Arabs from leaving, assisted Arab communities in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza, and later incorporated large Arab populations in eastern Jerusalem and the Golan Heights.

Prior to the Fatah/Hamas terrorist war launched in 2000, hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were brought to Israel as part of family unification programs.

Although Morris’ work has been critiqued by Professor Efraim Karsh (and also here), and Morris has boldly defended Israel, Kushner appears uninterested in anything that would change his preconceived prejudice. That is why he does not deserve to be honored by an academic institution. Kushner represents the antithesis of what universities try to teach: honest inquiry and the search for truth.

That Morris’ works are published by university presses and cited as authoritative, despite professional deficiencies, is deeply troubling, but not exceptional. Willingly duped by anti-Israel propagandists, Kushner used Morris and other academics to defame Israel and join the parade of hate. That’s hardly honorable, or even smart.

Morris disagrees with Kushner’s views about Israel, but he bears responsibility for providing the basis for that attack.

As the recent “Nakba” riots prove, the issue is not what happened in June 1967.



oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:30 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The only reason you are going on about this, is because Isreal's treatment of the Palestinians is indefensible, so you change the subject.


It is perfectly defensible. All Israel is doing is preventing Palestinians from murdering people.



izzythepush wrote:
America will not be the most powerful country on Earth for much longer,


The US will be the sole superpower on the planet for the remainder of both of our lives.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:33 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:
Quote:
...gentle people like the Palestinians...


I mean if I ever were to tell a lie that grotesque I'd anticipate to be blasted straight into hell within five seconds by a bolt of lightning.


No kidding. The Palestinians are one of the most brutal and evil people in human history.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:35 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
That stops you addressing what's really going on is the bratal occupation.


As if telling a Palestinian that he isn't allowed to murder children is brutal.



izzythepush wrote:
If there'sa any 'blood-libel' in calling Israel an apartheid state the libel is towards the Afrikaans.


Nope. The blood libel is the way you anti-Semites have been demonizing Jews for centuries.



izzythepush wrote:
Palestinians are subject to daily humiliation as they just try to go about their daily lives.


It must be really humiliating for them to not be allowed to murder children.



izzythepush wrote:
Constantly stopped at checkpoints in their own country by an illegal occupying force, spat at by fascist settlers.


Hardly illegal to prevent Palestinians from murdering children.



izzythepush wrote:
The way the settlers behave in Hebron is no different to the way the brownshirts behaved in Germany in the 1930's.


Nope. The way YOU are behaving is no different from the way the brownshirts behaved in Germany in the 1930's. Your anti-Semitism is despicable.



izzythepush wrote:
I cannot understand how anyone can see the brutal suffering of a gentle people like the Palestinians and not feel sympathy.


The Palestinians are not "gentle people". They are monsters who will murder as many children as they can with their bare hands if they are given half a chance.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  0  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:38 am
@gungasnake,
I don't think i want to listen to any more of your diatribe.

Quote:
the palisavages

So every Palestinian is a savage, that's like saying every Israeli agrees with
the actions of their government, they don't.

You should try putting yourself in their position before you start calling people savages.
Me thinks you're just a nasty piece of work and by the by you never answered my question.

Quote:
the other way around if Mexico was doing to the USofA what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, do you not think there would be patriot Americans (like your good self) willing to risk their lives and resist and fight back, maybe even by lobbing a few rockets at them?.


Don't bother.
I've had all the nasty diatribe i can take for today.
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:42 am
@eurocelticyankee,
eurocelticyankee wrote:
Just as a matter of interest, if the US was doing to the Mexicans what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, do you not think there would be rockets being fired over the border?. DOH.


The only thing Israel is doing to the Palestinians is preventing them from murdering innocent Israelis.

If Mexicans suddenly decided to start acting like a bunch of Palestinians, we'd probably slam them down harder than Israel does.



eurocelticyankee wrote:
Or the other way around if Mexico was doing to the USofA what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, do you not think there would be patriot Americans (like your good self) willing to risk their lives and resist and fight back, maybe even by lobbing a few rockets at them?.


If for some reason Americans started acting like a bunch of Palestinians and murdering Mexican children, and Mexico rightfully defended themselves from the murderers, anyone who was attacking Mexico would not be a patriot. They'd just be an evil child-killer like the Palestinians are.
oralloy
 
  2  
Reply Sat 21 May, 2011 07:46 am
@eurocelticyankee,
eurocelticyankee wrote:
You should try putting yourself in their position before you start calling people savages.


Is it necessary to picture yourself as a brutal child-killing Palestinian in order to conclude that brutal child-killing Palestinians are savages?



eurocelticyankee wrote:
nasty diatribe


Nasty diatribe..... Like all the anti-Semitism that's been vomited all over the thread?
0 Replies
 
 

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