52
   

Osama Bin Laden is dead

 
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:15 pm
@Ionus,
They were resisting occupation.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:22 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
They were resisting occupation.
They didnt resist the Japanese....they said they would then used the weapons against the French after the war . South Vietnam was not occupied . North Vietnam was not occupied unless it was by the Chinese and Soviets . If Ho was such a lovely person why was he prolonging the war and killing his people simply so he could enjoy the power of being in charge of all Vietnam, a people genuinely different in the South to the North .
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:29 pm
@Ionus,
What has any of that got to with it? The South Vietnamese Goverment was dictatorial and corrupt. America was just backing it's own nasty regime above the Soviets nasty regime. All of the chemicals and napalm dropped was hardly the actions of a benign liberator. There's deforested areas and birth defects still going on today because of all that.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:35 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The South Vietnamese Goverment was dictatorial and corrupt.
What was the North Vietnamese government ? A true representation of the Freedom Loving Peoples and Revolutionary Army of the Republic of North Vietnam ? No one was ever conscripted in the North ? No bribes were ever passed to corrupt communist officials anywhere, epsecially North Vietnam ?

Quote:
There's deforested areas and birth defects still going on today because of all that.
Do you think they knew it would result in birth defects ? Which incidentally are greatly exaggerated for political reasons .

Quote:
All of the chemicals and napalm dropped was hardly the actions of a benign liberator.
There is never anything benign about liberation . Anyway, they were not being liberated they were being defended from the North .
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:40 pm
@Ionus,
And no-one was conscripted in America? You may think America was doing the right thing in Vietnam, but I don't think the Vietnamese would. Anyway you're just feeling bitter because America lost.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:46 pm
@izzythepush,
Allow me to say what I feel and why . Your ESP does not extend that far . I dont think the USA was doing the right thing in Vietnam . But criticising hysterically as JoinTalibanTerrorism does is to not learn from mistakes whilst allowing the real criminals to go unpunished .

The war was militarily won . It would have taken the North at least a decade to rebuild after its losses in the Tet Offensive .

Why dont you criticise the war crimes committed by the North when they illegally invaded the South and executed all the government employees and supporters that they could,especially army officers, sending the rest off to re-education camps . How many people did they murder ?
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:48 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
The North and South are different people...it was only being power mad that led Ho to want to include the South even to the point of getting cosy with the traditional enemy of Vietnam, China .


You are terribly terribly ignorant but you are just bright enough to know that you are an enormous liar.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:52 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You are terribly terribly ignorant
As in you didnt know where Khmer was ? You didnt know Pol Pot killed millions ? Or do you mean ignorant as you think Ho Chi Minh was a nice man because you and that whore Fonda had sex with him ....perhaps you mean ignorant as in when you and your senile hippy friends tell the world all we need is to have more love-ins .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:53 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
you are an enormous liar.
Prove I am a war criminal.....
JTT
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:56 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Anyway, they were not being liberated they were being defended from the North .


Rumors and bar room tall tales is all that Ionus ever produces.

Quote:
As the Pentagon Papers show, the U.S. leadership knew that in Vietnam the "primary sources of Communist strength in the South remain indigenous," with a corresponding "ability to recruit locally" and it was recognized that the NLF "enjoys some status as a nationalist movement," whereas the military government "is composed primarily of technicians" lacking in "positive support from various key segments of the populace" and determined "to remain the real power in South Vietnam" without any "interference from the civilians in the conduct of the war." [131] The experienced pacification Chief John Paul Vann, writing in 1965, put the matter more brutally [132]:

A popular political base for the Government of South Vietnam does not now ....... The existing government is oriented toward the exploitation of the rural and lower class urban populations. It is, in fact, a continuation of the French colonial system of government with upper class Vietnamese replacing the French The dissatisfaction of the agrarian population... is expressed largely through alliance with the NLF.
It was thus well known to American authorities in 1965 that we were fighting a nationalist mass movement in favor of a corrupt oligarchy that lacked popular backing.


So how did the US handle this unruly bunch of peasants who would follow the US program?

Quote:

Operation Speedy Express was only one of a great many major pacification efforts carried out by the U.S. command. It is unusual, apparently, only in that it was studied and reported by a competent and experienced correspondent, Kevin P. Buckley of Newsweek.

All the evidence I gathered pointed to a clear conclusion: a staggering number of noncombatant civilians - perhaps as many as 5,000 according to one official - were killed by U.S. fire power to "pacify" Kien Hoa. The death toll there made the My Lai massacre look trifling by comparison... The Ninth Division put all it had into the operation. Eight thousand infantrymen scoured the heavily populated countryside, but contact with the elusive enemy was rare. Thus, in its pursuit of pacification, the division relied heavily on its 50 artillery pieces, 50 helicopters (many armed with rockets and mini-guns) and the deadly support lent by the Air Force. There were 3,381 tactical air strikes by tighter bombers during "Speedy Express"... "Death is our business and business is good," was the slogan painted on one helicopter unit's quarters during the operation. And so it was. Cumulative statistics for "Speedy Express" show that 10,899 "enemy" were killed. In the month of March alone, "over 3,000 enemy troops were killed... which is the largest monthly total for any American division in the Vietnam war," said the division's official magazine. when asked to account for the enormous body counts, a division senior ofticer explained that helicopter crews often caught unarmed "enemy" in open fields. But Vietnamese repeatedly told me that those "enemy" were farmers gunned down while they worked in their rice tields... There is overwhelming evidence that virtually all the Viet Cong were well armed. Simple civilians were, of course, not armed. And the enormous discrepancy between the body count [i.e 11,000] and the number of captured weapons [i.e 748] is hard to explain - except by the conclusion that many victims were unarmed innocent civilians... The people who still live in pacified Kien Hoa all have vivid recollections of the devastation that American firepower brought to their lives in early 1969. Virtually every person to whom I spoke had suftered in some way. "There were 5,000 people in our village before 1969, but there were none in 1970," one village elder told me. "The Americans destroyed every house with artillery, air strikes, or by burning them down with cigarette lighters. About 100 people were killed by bombing, others were wounded and others became refugees. Many were children killed by concussion from the bombs which their small bodies could not withstand, even if they were hiding underground." Other officials, including the village police chief, corroborated the man's testimony. I could not, of course, reach every village. But in each of the many places where I went, the testimony was the same: 100 killed here, 200 killed there. One old man summed up all the stories: "The Americans killed some VC but only a small number. But of civilians, there were a large number killed"
Although Buckley states that pacification chief John Paul Vann found that Speedy Express had alienated the population (a profound discovery), he reports that the Army command considered its work well done. After all, "the 'land rush' succeeded. Government troops moved into the ravaged countryside in the wake of the bombardments, set up outposts and established Saigon's dominance of Kien Hoa." The commander of the unit responsible for this achievement was promoted with an accolade from General Abrams, who felt that "the performance of this division has been magnificent." On another occasion, when awarding him the Legion of Merit, Abrams referred to George Patton III, the man most noted for converting "pacification" into plain killing, as "one of my finest young commanders." [143]

http://www.chomsky.info/books/counter-revolutionary-violence.htm#sec7





JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 05:59 pm
@Ionus,
Your obsession with breasts being cut off and trying to relive your "military exploits" is noteed.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 06:18 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Rumors and bar room tall tales is all that Ionus ever produces.
You love to quote one dissenter amongst thousands...and the motive of the dissenter is always to sell books upon retirement . Why do you never post about the atrocities by the North or the lack of support for the Communists there when they took over and killed the opposition ?

You have no end to your hypocrisy...if you can twist something to suit, you will climb into bed with the Pentagon stating they must be right, but if you disagree with them, then they are evil incarnate . Your brain has passed its use by date .

Why dont you whinge about the civilians killed in WWII ? Or the civilians killed by the Serbs ? Or the genocide by the Turks against the Armenians ? Who raped you ?
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 06:21 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Your obsession with breasts being cut off
You are a fool of unbelievable stupidity...I keep calling you on your exaggerations and lies and you attribute them to ME ?? Don't you remember calling me a war criminal ? You have just suggested it again but where is your proof ? Just lies and money hungry authors telling people what they want to hear...keep posting your leftist bullshit...you are fooling nobody .
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 06:23 pm
@wmwcjr,
The Stalin Peace Prize ... the peace of an unmarked mass grave.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 06:33 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
You love to quote one dissenter amongst thousands.


And you love to not read the material. You don't even know the name of the reporter or the magazine.

If you actually read it, you would note that the information comes from US government sources, from US government operatives.

You would note that it shows what a compulsive liar you are.

You would note that your rants are based on nothing but rumor and most probably the rants of other like minded ignorant grunts.

Quote:
Why dont you whinge about ...


Because we're not finished here.

You shoot from tangent to tangent like a bee in a field of sucked dry flowers. As soon as your lies/ignorance/stupidity is exposed, off you go on another flight of psychotic ramblings.

Quote:
The 43-plus My Lais of the South Korean Mercenaries

South Korean mercenary forces were contracted for and brought into South Vietnam by the Johnson Administration in 1965, and they remained there into 1973. News reports in 1965 and 1966 described these South Korean forces as "fierce" and "effective," but only in January 1970 was it disclosed publicly that their effectiveness rested on a policy of simple and deliberate murder of South Vietnamese civilians. At that time it was reported that they had carried out a policy of simply shooting one of ten civilians in villages which they occupied. [144]
Not until 1972, however, did the scale of South Korean civilian murders become public knowledge (although still of little interest to the mass media these murders fall into the "constructive" category). [145] Two Vietnamese-speaking Quakers, Diane and Michael Jones, carried out an intensive study of a portion of the area that had been occupied by the South Koreans for half a decade. To summarize their findings [146]:

(a) The South Korean "rented soldiers," as the South Vietnamese describe them, committed a whole series of My Lai-scale massacres, twelve separate massacres of 100 or more civilians having been uncovered in the Jones' study. These soldiers carried out dozens of other massacres of twenty or more unarmed civilians, plus innumerable isolated killings, robberies, rapes, tortures, and devastation of land and personal property. The aggregate number of known murders by the South Koreans clearly runs into many thousands; and the Joneses examined only a part of the territory "pacified" by these "allied" forces. (b) The bulk of the victims of these slaughters were women, children, and old people, as draft-age males had either joined the NLF, been recruited into the Saigon army, or were in hiding. (c) These mass murders were carried out in part, but only in part [147], as reprisals for attacks on the South Korean forces, or as a warning against such attacks. Briefly, the civilians of the entire area covered by the South Koreans served as hostages; if any casualties were taken by these mercenaries, as by an exploding mine, they often would go to the nearest village and shoot twenty, or 120, unarmed civilians. This policy is similar to that employed by the Nazis, but South Korean hostage murders of civilians have been relatively more extensive and undiscriminating than those perpetrated by the Nazis in Western Europe during World War II, considering the relative scale of the occupation. (d) These mass murders were carried out over an extended time period, and into 1972, with certain knowledge by U.S. authorities. [148] There is no evidence that U.S. officials made any effort to discourage this form of "pacification" or that any disciplinary action was ever taken in response to these frequent and sustained atrocities. In fact, there is reason to believe the South Korean policy of deliberate murder of civilians was not merely known and tolerated but was looked upon with favor by some U.S. authorities. Frank Baldwin, of Columbia University's East Asia Institute, reports that the Korean policy was "an open secret in Korea for several years." American officials admitted to Baldwin that these accounts were true, "sometimes with regret, but usually with admiration." [149] (e) In its request for $134 million for fiscal 1973 to support the continued presence of South Korean troops in Vietnam (raising the 1966-73 total to $1.76 billion), the DOD pointed out to Congress that the South Korean troops "protect" an important section of South Vietnam. It is a fact that the South Koreans have "protected" and given "security" [150] to people in South Vietnam in precisely the Orwellian- official American sense that Nixon, Westmoreland, and the pacification program in general have done.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 07:00 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
You don't even know the name of the reporter or the magazine.
I know you bought it hook line and sinker . Why do you suppose their is no documentation of Ho's war crimes available in Vietnam ? Does your imagination go that way, or does it only point west ?

Where is your ref for me being a war criminal ?

Quote:
the rants of other like minded ignorant grunts.
Were you thrown out of the army ? Or perhaps you were raped by a soldier from the USA ....

How come you didnt mention your boy friend Ho's war crimes ?

How come you didnt mention the one million people who fled the north before they closed the border ? Were they ALL supporters of the USA Imperialist Running Dogs ? None of then were scared for their lives ? None ?

Where did the South Koreans get their hatred of Communists ? In your mind it was because the North Koreans were lovely people and were out flower collecting one day and accidentally wandered across the border . Perhaps it was USA aggression that made the North Koreans invade the South....that made the North Koreans kill many hundreds of thousands in the South, including United Nations prisoners of war.....thats right, you Psycho bitch...they were United Nations troops . Like in Afghanistan now...

Quote:
You shoot from tangent to tangent
I dont have the luxury of blaming the entire history of the world on the USA....you obviously dont care if you make sense or not . In your mind there is only one cause for all evil...the Great Satan...the USA .

Quote:
As soon as your lies/ignorance/stupidity is exposed
Do you mean like you calling me a war criminal ? That sort of lie ? Ignorance as you not knowing where Khmer was ? That sort of ignorance ? Stupidity where your understanding of politics, warfare and criminal actions is limited to telling everyone about how thousands of women were raped and had their breasts cut off in front of their breast fed babies ? That sort of stupidity ? It isnt very hard work exposing your lies/ignorance/stupidity....you have done most of it for me .

Seriously, all fun aside, you are mentally ill .
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 07:10 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
I know you bought it


What a lame response, Ionus. Just illustrates how easily lying comes to you.


Quote:
Over 90% of the air strikes in South Vietnam were classified officially as "interdiction" [136], which means bombing not carried out in support of specific on-going military actions, but rather area bombing, frequently on a programmed basis, and attacks on "what are suspected" to be "enemy base camps, or sites from which a shot may have been fired.

One former military intelligence officer with the American Division in South Vietnam told a Congressional Subcommittee: "Every information report (IR) we wrote based on our sources' information was classified as (1) unverifiable and (2) usually reliable source ... The unverified and in fact unverifiable information, nevertheless, was used regularly as input to artillery strikes, harassment and interdiction fire (H & I), B-52 and other air strikes, often on populated areas." [137]

In the words of Army Chief of Staff General Johnson, "We have not enough information. We act with ruthlessness, like a steamroller, bombing extensive areas and not selected targets based on detailed intelligence." [138]


Then off you go, yet again, on your inane, psychotic rants.

Pretty tough for a comic book "soldier" to ever be a war criminal, isn't it?
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 07:14 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
Then off you go, yet again, on your inane, psychotic rants.
You would be very funny if I didn't think you were serious .

Where is your ref for me being a war criminal or are you just a lying psychotic bitch ?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 07:20 pm
@Ionus,
Provide details of your "service" and then we can discuss it, junior.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 May, 2011 07:21 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Provide details of your "service" and then we can discuss it, junior.
Are you finally going to come clean with your personal story, with where your hate for America comes from?......fair is fair.
 

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