Osama Bin Laden is dead

Thanks for that.

I'm sorry if you don't understand what I've been saying. You don't know what talking bollocks is, but you're so very good at it. I really don't need to list all the different ways America is more right wing than Western Europe. I thought you'd be pleased about that, you being such a right wing gobshite.

It's all about fear. If you keep a population frightened you can control it. Just look at what's going on in the Middle East to see what happens when people stop being frightened, admittedly that's a pretty extreme form of fear compared to what's going on in the West, but it's the same process, just a bit more extreme.

The right wing elite has no interest in full employment. If you have a population struggling to pay bills, living a hand to mouth existance they're focussed on just getting by. You're not going to rock the boat at work when there's a pool of unemployed labour waiting to replace you. Despite what Roger said about food stamps looking like credit cards, there must still be that feeling that when you present them at the check out the person behind the counter will make some sort of value judgement about you. You're not a proper person if you cannot provide for your family without state help. And every time you use foodstamps you're letting someone else know that.

Cheap illegal labour is another way people are kept under the thumb, and the resentment is focussed on the poor old immigrants who are forced to work for peanuts, not the people employing them. The lack of universal health care keeps people frightened, they're not just frightenened of being ill, but that their illness may plunge them into bankruptcy.

There seems to be a huge focus on tax in America. In the UK all prices displayed are inclusive of tax. When I was in Texas it was the other way round, you had one bill for the goods and then saw the tax on top. This means you're always aware of tax, so when the right wing argue for tax cuts it's easy to see that as the problem, not the fact you don't get a living wage.

The Bush administration used the spectre of Islamic extremism to take away people's rights, and keep their focus elsewhere. A far right 'news' organisation like Fox ramps up the fear, making the fear of terrorist attack so much greater than the likelihood of it ever happening. This is the power of nightmares, and it's used by wealthy elites the world over to keep the workers in their place.

I agree, Izzy. The one thing you might have overlooked is this one; "If you are going to tell a lie, make it a really big one. It's more likely to be believed than a small one."

You're spot on there mate.

I thought Cartman hit him over the head with a big mallet.

You should post that statement on the Where is the Economy headed thread:
http://able2know.org/topic/47327-1

Your statement describes the current day America. Actually, it describes America over the past three decades, which has been a living illustration of the parable of the frog. Put a frog in a vessel, put the vessel on the stove and turn on the heat. The frog won't notice the slowly rising temperature. Here, we have worked harder and harder to get by. This was in part do to the famous yuppie-working-long-hours-to-get-ahead focus of the 1980s, which coincided with the Maggie-and-Ronnie Show.

Malls took away our independent merchants. The captains of industry sent our manufacturing overseas to be done by the brown and yellow skinned people the captains themselves despised.

That depends. EhBeth wrote just yesterday on another thread that 30% of the cashiers in Canada have degrees. In addition to teaching at a community college, I work at a liquor store. You'd be surprised as the academic credentials my coworkers have.

I've seen the people in their forties with young families struggling with the parents working a combination of three jobs. While there are burned out alcoholics and shattered veterans who use the cards that are food stamps (which can not be used to purchase alcohol), there are also young intellectuals, college-educated people in their 30s, single, renting apartments whose job or two jobs do not add up to an income.

Amen. Let's face it: other than the descendants of slaves forcibly brought to these shores or of indigenous peoples, this is a nation of immigrants. No "white" person has the "right" to look down upon the recent immigrant. There is no tenure for citizenship.

Post this on the economy thread as well. It will fly over the heads of wingnuts, but it is something that must be said.

Frankly, I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms although I haven't been to the UK. When I first went to Europe (Finland, Sweden and Germany),in 1976, taxation wasn't an issue. It seems that the French separate the taxes out, but, when I was there in 1997, my focus was on the reaction by the French to terrorism (all lockers in stations and all trash cans were locked). The French took it in stride . . . they also kept their streets neat and clean, unlike Americans with locked trash cans.

True.

See what I wrote about the French.

You've got to make your honesty a little less stark, Izzy or you won't last long on Finn's list of discussion partners. It'll soon be off to ignore for you.

This is a theme for what I have been saying for years and years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTAh7OPNC20&feature=autoplay&list=PL21B9EE45BD20F79B&index=2&playnext=9

That was a pretty good overview of the impending demise of the middle class in the US.

Especially coming from a Limey

I'll only quibble with one minor point.
In our city of 150,000, the loss of construction jobs has forced a huge amount of people to use food stamps. It is no longer denigrating or embarrassing. It's a way to survive.

And that would ruin my life how?

You'd miss out on Finn's valuable corrections of your errant ways.

I may well do that, but I don't always like to repeat myself. I used to work for the Social Security in the UK. I used to deal with income support, a means tested benefit for people without enough money to live on. I would quite often go to see pensioners who would complain that their retirement pensions were not enough. The retirement pension is based on the National Insurance Contributions they had paid over their working lives. Sometimes it wasn't enough and they were entitled to a top up of income support.

A lot of pensioners wouldn't take it as they thought it was degrading, and this was a cash payment.

They're called 'Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program' debit cards. The New York Times had a humorous article about a year ago on the increase in yuppies applying and how they used them. I couldn't find that exact article, but found one in Salon that calls them 'hipsters' instead of yuppies.

Hipsters on Food Stamps

I don't know if what you said about foodstamps is a good or a bad thing. My post wasn't specifically aimed at America, although obviously the phrases about Bush were. This sort of thing is happening here, Our Tory lead government has just introduced plans to help enterprise by 'cutting red tape,' (I don't know if it's a phrase you use but it means to reduce bureaucracy), it's basically an attack on worker's rights by limiting the powers of industrial tribunals, (boards that meet to decide if someone's been unfairly dismissed from work, subjected to sexual harassment etc.) They're also trying to reduce benefits paid to the disabled

it's two shots, and a splash of water.

Guess it beats "Mission Accomplished"

Hipsters aren't yuppies. Yuppies might be old enough now to be the parents of hipsters. Hipsters are kids who think its cool to drink Pabst Blue Ribbon which they call PBR. Its a rejection of boutique beers and independent breweries and a salute to the working class. These kids miss the point and fail to realize that they are supporting a big corporation.

I never argued that, in general, US is not more rightwing than Europe. It certainly is, thank goodness, but the notion that the US political Left is little more than conservative lite is absurd.

As for the brilliance of well travelled Europeans, the last time I was in London, I was told by a very nice and quite intelligent cab driver (who was self-professed avid traveller) that not only did he think Jimmy Carter was one of our most effective presidents, but most of his countrymen did as well.

You don't have to be conservative to know that Carter was a terrible president, you just have to know something about his presidency.

I don't expect Brits to know a whole lot about America or it's history, so this fellow's ignorance about Carter isn't a big deal, but certainly his having a passport and spending a couple of weeks in Disney World, did not improve his understanding of the Carter years.

I appreciate your advice to Americans to get out in the world and see what our country is doing in our name. Do you mean Haiti after it's earthquake, or Indonesia after it's tsunami? Or maybe you mean Africa to which our prior president ( the one you're not fond of) sent billions of American dollars to help address it's AIDs epidemic.

I suspect you fancy yourself an insightful world traveller. Did your sojourns help you understand what your government was doing in your name when it arranged for the release of Lockerbie bomber Abdel Baset al-Megrahi?

I have nothing but admiration for the British people in general and more so than any other country it has been a stout ally of the US. Because I'm at least one American who has travelled the world ( and maintains a passport!), I'm not about to presume that I know any more about the world or the UK, than a Brit.

It's quite touching how you appreciate so many of my nice and decent knucklehead countrymen, who know very little about our country and even less about the world. It's also quite noble of you to try and educate us about what our government is doing in our name and how Fox news is seizing our minds.

I also note how fair-minded you are and want to make sure we know you believe it was Bush, not Obama who was the "gobshite."

Obama would never order torture, just assassinations...at a rate four times what Bush ordered. But you've, no doubt, been to places like Bangkok, Lima, and Katmandu, and so you know Obama is really a good guy...even if he is actually more conservative than Margaret Thatcher ever was.

I think that Izzy meant something more like the following:

COUNTRY OR STATE Dates of intervention - Forces - Comments
SOUTH DAKOTA 1890 (-?) Troops 300 Lakota Indians massacred at Wounded Knee.
ARGENTINA 1890 Troops Buenos Aires interests protected.
CHILE 1891 Troops Marines clash with nationalist rebels.
HAITI 1891 Troops Black revolt on Navassa defeated.
IDAHO 1892 Troops Army suppresses silver miners' strike.
HAWAII 1893 (-?) Naval, troops Independent kingdom overthrown, annexed.
CHICAGO 1894 Troops Breaking of rail strike, 34 killed.
NICARAGUA 1894 Troops Month-long occupation of Bluefields.
CHINA 1894-95 Naval, troops Marines land in Sino-Japanese War
KOREA 1894-96 Troops Marines kept in Seoul during war.
PANAMA 1895 Troops, naval Marines land in Colombian province.
NICARAGUA 1896 Troops Marines land in port of Corinto.
CHINA 1898-1900 Troops Boxer Rebellion fought by foreign armies.
PHILIPPINES 1898-1910 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, killed 600,000 Filipinos
CUBA 1898-1902 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still hold Navy base.
PUERTO RICO 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, occupation continues.
GUAM 1898 (-?) Naval, troops Seized from Spain, still use as base.
MINNESOTA 1898 (-?) Troops Army battles Chippewa at Leech Lake.
NICARAGUA 1898 Troops Marines land at port of San Juan del Sur.
SAMOA 1899 (-?) Troops Battle over succession to throne.
NICARAGUA 1899 Troops Marines land at port of Bluefields.
IDAHO 1899-1901 Troops Army occupies Coeur d'Alene mining region.
OKLAHOMA 1901 Troops Army battles Creek Indian revolt.
PANAMA 1901-14 Naval, troops Broke off from Colombia 1903, annexed Canal Zone; Opened canal 1914.
HONDURAS 1903 Troops Marines intervene in revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1903-04 Troops U.S. interests protected in Revolution.
KOREA 1904-05 Troops Marines land in Russo-Japanese War.
CUBA 1906-09 Troops Marines land in democratic election.
NICARAGUA 1907 Troops "Dollar Diplomacy" protectorate set up.
HONDURAS 1907 Troops Marines land during war with Nicaragua
PANAMA 1908 Troops Marines intervene in election contest.
NICARAGUA 1910 Troops Marines land in Bluefields and Corinto.
HONDURAS 1911 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
CHINA 1911-41 Naval, troops Continuous occupation with flare-ups.
CUBA 1912 Troops U.S. interests protected in civil war.
PANAMA 1912 Troops Marines land during heated election.
HONDURAS 1912 Troops Marines protect U.S. economic interests.
NICARAGUA 1912-33 Troops, bombing 10-year occupation, fought guerillas
MEXICO 1913 Naval Americans evacuated during revolution.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1914 Naval Fight with rebels over Santo Domingo.
COLORADO 1914 Troops Breaking of miners' strike by Army.
MEXICO 1914-18 Naval, troops Series of interventions against nationalists.
HAITI 1914-34 Troops, bombing 19-year occupation after revolts.
TEXAS 1915 Troops Federal soldiers crush "Plan of San Diego" Mexican-American rebellion
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1916-24 Troops 8-year Marine occupation.
CUBA 1917-33 Troops Military occupation, economic protectorate.
WORLD WAR I 1917-18 Naval, troops Ships sunk, fought Germany for 1 1/2 years.
RUSSIA 1918-22 Naval, troops Five landings to fight Bolsheviks
PANAMA 1918-20 Troops "Police duty" during unrest after elections.
HONDURAS 1919 Troops Marines land during election campaign.
YUGOSLAVIA 1919 Troops/Marines intervene for Italy against Serbs in Dalmatia.
GUATEMALA 1920 Troops 2-week intervention against unionists.
WEST VIRGINIA 1920-21 Troops, bombing Army intervenes against mineworkers.
TURKEY 1922 Troops Fought nationalists in Smyrna.
CHINA 1922-27 Naval, troops Deployment during nationalist revolt.
HONDURAS 1924-25 Troops Landed twice during election strife.
PANAMA 1925 Troops Marines suppress general strike.
CHINA 1927-34 Troops Marines stationed throughout the country.
EL SALVADOR 1932 Naval Warships send during Marti revolt.
WASHINGTON DC 1932 Troops Army stops WWI vet bonus protest.
WORLD WAR II 1941-45 Naval, troops, bombing, nuclear Hawaii bombed, fought Japan, Italy and Germay for 3 years; first nuclear war.
DETROIT 1943 Troops Army put down Black rebellion.
IRAN 1946 Nuclear threat Soviet troops told to leave north.
YUGOSLAVIA 1946 Nuclear threat, naval Response to shoot-down of US plane.
URUGUAY 1947 Nuclear threat Bombers deployed as show of strength.
GREECE 1947-49 Command operation U.S. directs extreme-right in civil war.
GERMANY 1948 Nuclear Threat Atomic-capable bombers guard Berlin Airlift.
CHINA 1948-49 Troops/Marines evacuate Americans before Communist victory.
PHILIPPINES 1948-54 Command operation CIA directs war against Huk Rebellion.
PUERTO RICO 1950 Command operation Independence rebellion crushed in Ponce.
KOREA 1951-53 (-?) Troops, naval, bombing , nuclear threats U.S./So. Korea fights China/No. Korea to stalemate; A-bomb threat in 1950, and against China in 1953. Still have bases.
IRAN 1953 Command Operation CIA overthrows democracy, installs Shah.
VIETNAM 1954 Nuclear threat French offered bombs to use against seige.
GUATEMALA 1954 Command operation, bombing, nuclear threat CIA directs exile invasion after new gov't nationalized U.S. company lands; bombers based in Nicaragua.
EGYPT 1956 Nuclear threat, troops Soviets told to keep out of Suez crisis; Marines evacuate foreigners.
LEBANON l958 Troops, naval Marine occupation against rebels.
IRAQ 1958 Nuclear threat Iraq warned against invading Kuwait.
CHINA l958 Nuclear threat China told not to move on Taiwan isles.
PANAMA 1958 Troops Flag protests erupt into confrontation.
VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
IRAQ 1963 Command operation CIA organizes coup that killed president, brings Ba'ath Party to power, and Saddam Hussein back from exile to be head of the secret service.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-91 Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
IRAQ 1991-2003 Bombing, naval No-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south; constant air strikes and naval-enforced economic sanctions
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998 Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency. More than 30,000 U.S. troops and numerous private security contractors carry our occupation.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into combat missions in Sulu Archipelago, west of Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. More than 250,000 U.S. personnel participate in invasion. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. More than 160,000 troops and numerous private contractors carry out occupation and build large permanent bases.
LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines land after right-wing rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, bombing, covert operation CIA missile and air strikes and Special Forces raids on alleged Al Qaeda and Taliban refuge villages kill multiple civilians. Drone attacks also on Pakistani Mehsud network.
SOMALIA 2006-? Missiles, naval, troops, command operation Special Forces advise Ethiopian invasion that topples Islamist government; AC-130 strikes, Cruise missile attacks and helicopter raids against Islamist rebels; naval blockade against "pirates" and insurgents.
SYRIA 2008 Troops Special Forces in helicopter raid 5 miles from Iraq kill 8 Syrian civilians
YEMEN 2009-? Missiles, command operation Cruise missile attack on Al Qaeda kills 49 civilians; Yemeni military assaults on rebels
LIBYA 2011-? Bombing, missiles, command operation NATO coordinates air strikes and missile attacks against Qaddafi government during uprising by rebel army.