9
   

Will the UN get involved in Syria?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 10:18 am
@msolga,
I've already said that the UN has outlived its usefulness. There's nothing they can do. Words alone will not accomplish anything in that situation.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 10:48 am
@cicerone imposter,
I agree with C.I.. The U.N is just a bunch of inept politicians who do nothing but collect their wages.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 08:39 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
I've already said that the UN has outlived its usefulness. There's nothing they can do. Words alone will not accomplish anything in that situation.

Quote:
I agree with C.I.. The U.N is just a bunch of inept politicians who do nothing but collect their wages.

I agree with both of you that the UN has been less than perfect in addressing & resolving the problems its been confronted with in the 21st century (in particular that of powerful nations preying on weaker ones for their own ends) but I despair at what appears to be your blanket negativity regarding the value of such an organization.
I wish you had something constructive to offer about alternative approaches.

As I see things, I'd much prefer an imperfect world body attempt to resolve the conflict in Syria (& elsewhere) than no such body exist at all. Do we agree on that?
The UN's difficulty is that its a 20th century construct with a 20th century charter, established to "to stop wars between countries, and to provide a platform for dialogue" :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations

... which is sorely in need of reform in the 21st century if is to be more effective in resolving 21st century problems. To be allowed the necessary "teeth" required to work toward achieving world peace in a globalized world, in other words. Of course that would involve changes to the UN charter. Changes to the existing "rules".

At the moment the Security Council (the "enforcement arm" of the UN) has sole power to allow the UN to act. The General Assembly can only make recommendations to the Council. And given that any one of the "big 5" (the United States, the Soviet Union, Britain, France, and China) can veto any UN Security Council resolution, it's pretty clear why so many issues the UN should be addressing are so often swept under the carpet, isn't it? Neutral
It seems clear to me that the General Assembly requires real power (maybe a 2/3rd vote to actually count as a formal resolution?) & that the power of the "big 5" over the Security Council be reduced.
For starters, that would be an admirable, say nothing of a far more democratic (!) reform!

That may sound pie in the sky to you, but if the nations of the world can & do work with each other to resolve global monetary issues, why not also work together toward achieving a more peaceful, lawful world?

(Incidentally, check out the information contained in this link.
the "big 5" countries with veto powers in the Security Council are the amongst 6 leading arms exporters in the world (including Germany) , with the 5 largest defence budgets in the world. Kind of contradiction in purposes, yes? )
Arms industry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry

Anyway, anyway ....
Rather than directing our anger & frustration at the UN as an organization, perhaps we should be targeting & shaming the the "big 5"? .... or at the very least, looking at ways of lessening their power & influence?
The UN could be a lot more effective if "the big 5" weren't preoccupied with looking after their own selfish interests, at the expense of those countries which urgently require support, that's for sure.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 08:43 pm
@msolga,
The problems are complicated; once any country gets involved, they must stay involved for the duration, and that can cost untold human sacrifice and treasure during a period of economic turmoil around the world.

Unless our country has a strong economy and military, it's not in our place to police the world. The international community must take responsibility in the aggregate for it to be effective.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 08:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The international community must take responsibility in the aggregate for it to be effective.

I've been arguing that "the rest of the world" is actually allowed more say in UN decisions, c.i.

Quote:
The problems are complicated; once any country gets involved, they must stay involved for the duration, and that can cost untold human sacrifice and treasure during a period of economic turmoil around the world.

Not sure what you're referring to here.
Military intervention in Syria, or elsewhere, at the moment?
I haven't said anything about that.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 09:00 pm
Update:

Quote:
Diplomats expelled as Annan tells Assad to stop the killing
By Anne Barker, Brendan Trembath, Rachael Brown and wires/ABC News

Updated May 30, 2012 12:36:22
Video: Syrian diplomats expelled around the world (ABC News)
Related Story: Western nations expel Syrian diplomats
Related Story: Witnesses describe Syrian massacre horror
Related Story: Security Council condemns massacre in Syria
Related Story: World condemns latest Syrian horror
Map: Syrian Arab Republic

Syrian diplomats were expelled from countries around the world as former United Nations boss Kofi Annan met Bashar al-Assad in Damascus to urge an immediate end to violence in the country.

Australia, the United States, Britain, France, Italy, Canada, Germany and Spain all threw out Syrian diplomats in a coordinated move to escalate pressure on Mr Assad after the massacre of at least 108 people, mostly women and children, in the town of Houla.


In Damascus, UN-Arab League envoy Mr Annan told the Syrian president to implement a ceasefire "not tomorrow, now".

But the mounting world anger failed to produce any change on the ground in Syria, where the bloodshed continued.

At least 98 people were killed in new violence on Tuesday as Mr Annan held his talks in Damascus, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.

The monitors said 61 civilians, 28 government troops and nine rebel fighters were killed as in clashes continued across the country.
...<cont>


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-30/diplomats-expelled-as-annan-presents-ultimatum/4040874
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 09:21 pm
@msolga,
It's not necessarily military intervention; political repercussions are now happening, and that's a good beginning. Syria must be isolated from all political and economic relationships.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 09:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But do you have anything to say about my response to your & Rabel's criticisms of the UN, c.i.?
I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Yes, I think the expulsion of Syrian ambassadors from the US, UK, France, Australia, Italy, Canada, Spain & Germany is move in the right direction, too.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 May, 2012 11:13 pm
@msolga,
Quote:
Rather than directing our anger & frustration at the UN as an organization, perhaps we should be targeting & shaming the the "big 5"? .... or at the very least, looking at ways of lessening their power & influence?
The UN could be a lot more effective if "the big 5" weren't preoccupied with looking after their own selfish interests, at the expense of those countries which urgently require support, that's for sure.


After a bit more reading: perhaps it would be more accurate to direct most of the criticism at 3 of the "big 5"countries for use of veto power on the Security Council ... during this century, anyway.

Quote:
Most recent vetoes

While China, Russia and the United States have exercised their veto power in the twenty-first century, neither France nor the United Kingdom have.

The following list contains the most recent event any of the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council exercised their veto power:

February 4, 2012: China and Russia double vetoed for the second time a draft resolution calling for support for the Arab League plan to end violence and support political transition in Syria.[14]

February 18, 2011: The United States vetoed a draft resolution condemning Israeli settlements in the West Bank.[15]

December 23, 1989: France, the United Kingdom and the United States vetoed a draft resolution condemning the United States invasion of Panama.[16]



Quote:
Most common users

Number of resolutions vetoed by each of the five permanent members of the Security Council between 1946 and 2007.:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ec/UNSC_veto.svg/350px-UNSC_veto.svg.png


Almost half the vetoes in the history of the Security Council were cast by the Soviet Union, with the vast majority of those being before 1965. Since using its first veto in 1946, Russia has been the most frequent user of the veto.[11]

From 1946 to 2008, vetoes were issued on 261 occasions. For that period, usage breaks down as follows:

b]United States[/b] has used the veto on 82 occasions between 1946 and 2007; and has used its veto power more than any other permanent member since 1972.[12]

Russia/the Soviet Union has used the veto on 124 occasions, more than any two others of the five permanent members of the Security Council combined.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 01:22 am
@msolga,
I've already stated my opinion about the UN; they are powerless, useless, and without influence. The members of the Security Council are at logger-heads on most issues, and nothing gets done.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 01:38 am
@msolga,
I'm with you Felix, we should remove the power of veto from the five permanent council members, not only would that result in Syria being threatened militarily, but Palestine would be recognised.

We've not had a huge conflict like WW2 since the UN was set up, and I think they can take some credit for that.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 02:18 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I've already stated my opinion about the UN; they are powerless, useless, and without influence. The members of the Security Council are at logger-heads on most issues, and nothing gets done.

Yes you have, c.i.
Just about all of it negative one-liners about worthless "talk". Similar to Rabel's one-liners.
End of story?
Nothing more to say?
Why are you not willing to even consider charter reforms which might make the UN a more effective body?
Do you not see that a more global world would not actually benefit from a more effective form of global governance?
You have nothing to say about that?
If not a reformed UN, to address urgent issues across the planet, then what instead?
Would nothing be better, in your view?
I honestly can't understand where you're coming from.
But I find your negativity extremely depressing. Neutral
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 02:27 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
I'm with you Felix, we should remove the power of veto from the five permanent council members, not only would that result in Syria being threatened militarily, but Palestine would be recognised.

We've not had a huge conflict like WW2 since the UN was set up, and I think they can take some credit for that.

I can't see any other way, izzy.
Reform the UN so it is is much more representative of all the member countries.

And heaven help us if we have to respond to a potential WW3 without an organization properly prepared to respond effectively to such a threat!
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 03:11 am
@msolga,
The opponants of the UN are all American, so far as I can see. There seems to be a difficulty in appreciating that's what is in America's interests isn't necessarily what's right for the rest of us.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 03:38 am
@izzythepush,
What do the negative-to-the-UN posters here actually have against UN ?... why are they unwilling to even contemplate any consideration of reforming the UN's charter to a more representative & democratic model, one which would better suit the realities of our global community? Surely?
That's what I don't understand.
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 03:45 am
@msolga,
Probably, at the risk of sounding like JTT, because it stops America doing whatever it wants.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 04:04 am
@izzythepush,
Sighing here & reluctantly agreeing.

But we should focus on the horror &the terror those Syrian civilians are experiencing in their daily lives.
No one's life should be anything like that.
Certainly not given we know about what is occurring in Syria & can play some part in putting an end their suffering, surely?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 04:20 am
@msolga,
The thing is we can't get involved without setting off a shitstorm. Syria is Russia's ally and they will need some pretty heavy assurances to hold back. Iran is also a major ally. It's an election year in America so there's not a lot of stomach for a fight.
msolga
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 04:58 am
@izzythepush,
Now that's a truly depressing thought, izzy.
I wonder what is the correct time, then, to express concern for ordinary civilians who have misfortune to be residing in the wrong parts of Syria during this terrible time?
In between other countries' elections? Neutral
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 May, 2012 05:10 am
@msolga,
I don't know chuck.
 

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