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The Communist Origin of the Modern Conservative Movement VI

 
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Fri 12 Oct, 2018 02:32 am
@Baldimo,
Quote:
I can't even begin to think about your over the top reaction if it had been a conservative shooting up a bunch of liberal politicians or if a DNC politician was attacked and beaten in front of his own house.

You seem obsessed with the term "DNC" — you never mention the RNC. DNC is not a synonym for the Democratic Party the way GOP is for the Republican Party.
Quote:
The left is filled with violent people...

Keep repeating your conservative talking points. But if you want to sound as if you actually know something you'll reject simplistic generalizations. The truth is, there are a lot of potentially violent Americans, of all political stripes. Our culture is steeped in violence. But it's ridiculous to conflate angry constituents yelling at their representatives with "violence". Conservatives, who are always going on about "freedom", are confusing free speech with violence. Which isn't surprising, as they confuse free speech with money as well. They throw around words like "liberty" and "freedom" to mask their addiction the power and greed.
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:19 am
@Zardoz,
Your first paragraph pretty much said violence against politicians is ok, it's part of the game...

Quote:
On Meet the Press Daily they pointed out that several other Republicans beside Rand Paul are whining about their safety and that this is an orchestrated political stunt to make it look like the Republicans are the victims of mob violence in order to generate sympathy from the voters.

Considering a left-wing political supporter of Bernie open fired on a bunch of GOP members, and left-wing political leaders are calling for open harassment and stalking of the opposing political party, they have every right to fear for their safety.

Quote:
I don’t think violence is the answer, but it can never be completely avoided in the same way mass murders are unavoidable. There was an assault weapon ban in place, but the Republicans made sure it was not renewed. Both the Kennedy brothers were killed so it is not like the Democrats have not been victims of violence. Rand Paul has never told us why his neighbor attacked him, the stories that came out at the time had to do with Rand’s unkept property.

You do think violence is the answer, in the first paragraph you said it was part of the game. I fail to see the connection between the assault rife ban and the assassinations of the Kennedy brothers, neither of them were shot with a semi-auto rifle.

I didn't realize what someone else considers "unkept" was an excuse to break their ribs. See, violence is the answer according to you. The neighbor claims there was lawn refuse near his property line, not on his property but near it. That's the sound of a crazy neighbor and it sounds like with your previous police experience, bureaucratic fascist that you are, you would have supported such a beating as just. Violence is part of the game as you so stated earlier.
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 12 Oct, 2018 10:46 am
@hightor,
Quote:
You seem obsessed with the term "DNC" — you never mention the RNC. DNC is not a synonym for the Democratic Party the way GOP is for the Republican Party.

DNC stands for Democratic National Commetie, and I've been using it lately because I'm tired of the false separation of the DNC and the politicians who run under their banner so when I talk about Democrat politicians, I mention DNC because that is who they are.
Does the GOP, Grand Old Party, stand for any other political group except the Republicans?

Quote:
Keep repeating your conservative talking points.

What talking points? I'm stating facts, the left is filled with violent people who have been assaulting people for the last 3 years at political rallies and in other violent protests.

Quote:
But if you want to sound as if you actually know something you'll reject simplistic generalizations.

The truth of left-wing violence over the last 3 years is not simplistic generalizations, it is a fact. The talking points are coming from the left to cover up the violence.

Quote:
The truth is, there are a lot of potentially violent Americans, of all political stripes. Our culture is steeped in violence.

That is true, but a majority of the political violence in the last 3 years has been coming from the extreme left-wing of the DNC. Antifa isn't a right-wing group assaulting old people or hitting people with pipes.

Quote:
But it's ridiculous to conflate angry constituents yelling at their representatives with "violence". Conservatives, who are always going on about "freedom", are confusing free speech with violence. Which isn't surprising, as they confuse free speech with money as well. They throw around words like "liberty" and "freedom" to mask their addiction the power and greed.

Sorry dude, but the left stated with the BS "words are violence" crap when they started trying to control who can and can't freely speak on college campuses. Now you have DNC politicans encourging their supports and activits to stalk people and harrass them "when they went out for a meal, to go shopping, at their homes and in every other moment of private time they have outside of their government jobs."
An editor for Think Progress said "confront Republicans where they eat, where they sleep, and where they work,”
Don't piss on my shoe and tell me it's raining.

When it comes to money is speech, I've always put it this way. As long as the govt can create laws and regulations to control a business, that business has every right to speak out against those laws/regulations and those who would create and enforce them, just as they should have every right to back a politician who would make doing business easier. If anti-business groups can donate to elections, why can't pro-business groups? Fair and equal treatment under the law, that is the name of the game.

Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Fri 12 Oct, 2018 09:17 pm
@Baldimo,
It is not that political violence is ok as it is that it is a fact of life even coal miners face the risk of death when they go down in a mine. No one promised the politicians a rose garden.

____________________________________________________
Regardless of the shooters politics the Republicans pushed the gun culture in America so every gun nut has an assault weapon and that conveys the idea that guns are the ultimate way to settle every score. It is kind of ironic, don’t you think? That the very people pushing the assault weapons had 70 rounds fired at them.

____________________________________________________
There are certain things that are just facts of life and political violence is one of them. Political violence in America didn’t begin at the Republican baseball practice and it won’t end there. The chances of any one politician being killed is far less than other professions such as policeman. Rand Paul is either going to have to buck up or get out of the kitchen.
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Sat 13 Oct, 2018 09:18 pm
The Republicans are claiming to be victims of the Democrat’s political rhetoric but now the Republican candidate for governor of Pennsylvania, Scott Wagner, on a Facebook Live post, threatened to stomp the current governor’s face while wearing golf spikes. How does this compare to Eric Holder’s statement, “That when they go low we kick them?” Wagner’s statement is about graphic violence. When someone stomps their victim’s face the victim is already down, and the intent is clearly to kill them. If the Republicans want to complain about political rhetoric they should start with Wagner.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 06:25 am
@Baldimo,
Quote:
...and I've been using it lately because I'm tired of the false separation of the DNC and the politicians who run under their banner so when I talk about Democrat politicians, I mention DNC because that is who they are.

When you talk about "Democrats" are you talking about people who generally support Democratic candidates, Democratic politicians and office-holders, or members of the DNC? The DNC is not particularly popular among grass-roots Dems and not all Democratic politicians are associated with it. Doses "RNC" stand for any other political group except the Republicans? Why not use it?
Quote:
What talking points?

Specifically the idea that "the left is violent" and that political violence is exclusively a left-wing phenomenon. Are the supporters of Cliven Bundy left-wingers? Kenneth Gleason — is he a left-wing Democrat? Samuel Woodward? Adam Purinton?
Quote:
Antifa isn't a right-wing group assaulting old people or hitting people with pipes.

No. But the Proud Boys aren't left-wing anarchists, either.
Quote:
...but the left stated with the BS "words are violence" crap when they started trying to control who can and can't freely speak on college campuses.

Well you know what? The "left" was wrong. So is that the way the right operates now — adopt discredited and specious memes with vaguely left-wing origins and parrot them as if they were widely-held and settled political dogma? And, by the way, shouting at politicians isn't the same thing as attempting to control who can and can't speak on college campuses. If people don't want to be accosted and dressed down by angry constituents maybe they should either be more responsive to public concerns or find another line of work.
Zardoz
 
  4  
Reply Sun 14 Oct, 2018 09:29 pm
The Republicans are trying to walk a tight rope again just as they did during the Kavanaugh hearing. They tried not to offend the victims of sexual assault by say they believed Dr Ford was sexually assaulted but saying that they didn’t believe Kavanaugh had assaulted her. In America a good portion of the electorate has been sexually assaulted, and the Republicans have to be careful not to offend them. Now the Republicans are trying to walk that tight rope again with global warming. The party line had been what Trump called global warming a “hoax.” Now as the effects of global warming are becoming more obvious with each new and more powerful hurricane the Republicans are now acknowledging that global warming is indeed real.

Now Rubio says, he recognizes the scientific consensus that human activity is the main driver of the issue. But policies that are considered in response to climate change need to be weighed against “the public interest and other topics.

Senator Flake said that the UN report is pretty dire. He also said Republicans who have downplayed the scientific consensus on climate change are going in the wrong direction and called on the GOP to take a leading role in confronting the issue.

The other day I heard a term that will become much more popular in the future, global warming refugee. In Fl panhandle there will be many people who will be global warming refugees as they will never return to where they once lived. It is just the first instalment of the new apocalyptic world the GOP is creating.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 08:58 am
@Zardoz,
Quote:
It is not that political violence is ok as it is that it is a fact of life even coal miners face the risk of death when they go down in a mine. No one promised the politicians a rose garden.

The difference between a coal miner and a politician is that no one is trying to hurt or kill coal miners, like they are right leaning politicians.

Quote:
Regardless of the shooters politics the Republicans pushed the gun culture in America so every gun nut has an assault weapon and that conveys the idea that guns are the ultimate way to settle every score. It is kind of ironic, don’t you think? That the very people pushing the assault weapons had 70 rounds fired at them.

Nothing ironic about a violent left-wing activist acting out when they loose elections, we've been watching it take place for almost 2 years now and the more the left looses, the more violent they will become. Hillary has already said as much, until the DNC wins Congress, the violence will continue.

Quote:
There are certain things that are just facts of life and political violence is one of them.

No, political violence is not a fact and shouldn't. It's only the losing left who feels the need to commit violence when they lose.

Quote:
Political violence in America didn’t begin at the Republican baseball practice and it won’t end there. The chances of any one politician being killed is far less than other professions such as policeman. Rand Paul is either going to have to buck up or get out of the kitchen.

You only feel this way because the violence is being perpetrated by the left and you support them and their ideals. I would never make excuses for violence from the right as you seem to be doing.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 09:17 am
@hightor,
Quote:
When you talk about "Democrats" are you talking about people who generally support Democratic candidates, Democratic politicians and office-holders, or members of the DNC? The DNC is not particularly popular among grass-roots Dems and not all Democratic politicians are associated with it. Doses "RNC" stand for any other political group except the Republicans? Why not use it?

I usually use the more common GOP but if it makes you feel better, I can use RNC instead of GOP. Not sure it makes a difference, unless you don't like the DNC being called out for what they do...

Quote:
Specifically the idea that "the left is violent" and that political violence is exclusively a left-wing phenomenon. Are the supporters of Cliven Bundy left-wingers? Kenneth Gleason — is he a left-wing Democrat? Samuel Woodward? Adam Purinton?

I'm aware of Cliven Bundy, but I had to read up on the rest. Isolated violence compared to violence pushed by leaders in the DNC?

Did you know that all charges against him and his sons were dropped earlier this year? Looks like their rights were violated and they had a right to stand up against the govt. I also don't recall them attacking or killing anyone? Do you have any facts to back that they did? With charges being dismissed "with prejudice", I would say the govt was in the wrong and the Bundy's were in the right.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/08/576502739/judge-dismisses-federal-case-against-cliven-bundy-and-sons-bars-retrial

Quote:
No. But the Proud Boys aren't left-wing anarchists, either.

Proud Boys? Haven't heard of them, who are they? Have any of them been arrested for violence like the Antifa people have?

Quote:
Well you know what? The "left" was wrong. So is that the way the right operates now — adopt discredited and specious memes with vaguely left-wing origins and parrot them as if they were widely-held and settled political dogma?

Was wrong? No, is wrong, this is currently going on, it isn't something that happened in the past. College campus's currently use this line to prevent speakers from speaking. You should check out footage of some of these events. Left-wing students walk in and disrupt the events with that same line of crap.

Quote:
And, by the way, shouting at politicians isn't the same thing as attempting to control who can and can't speak on college campuses.

It's the same tactic's being used by the same group of people against those they disagree with.

Quote:
If people don't want to be accosted and dressed down by angry constituents maybe they should either be more responsive to public concerns or find another line of work.

Those were not angry constituents, they were left-wing activists. When was the last time an angry right-wing constituent cornered a DNC politician in an elevator and was screaming at them? Not talking, but screaming?
hightor
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 10:36 am
@Baldimo,
Quote:
I usually use the more common GOP but if it makes you feel better, I can use RNC instead of GOP. Not sure it makes a difference, unless you don't like the DNC being called out for what they do...

I question using "Democratic National Committee" (DNC) or "Republican National Committee" (RNC) as an all-inclusive term for the parties, the people who vote for the parties, and the legislators and candidates who represent the parties in office.

Here are the members of the DNC:

Tom Perez, Keith Ellison, Karen Carter Peterson, Michael Blake,
Jaime Harrison, Maria Elena Durazo, Ken Martin, Grace Meng,
William "Bill" Derrough, Jason Rae, Henry Muñoz III

If you're not discussing these particular people I don't think it makes sense to refer to the "DNC" when discussing other Democrats who aren't members.
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 11:20 am
@hightor,
Why try and disassociate the DNC from the politicians who run under their banner and receive money from their coffers?

Quote:
If you're not discussing these particular people I don't think it makes sense to refer to the "DNC" when discussing other Democrats who aren't members.

Of course it makes sense, the DNC sets the platform under which all Dems run. To say they aren't part of the DNC is silly.
hightor
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 01:31 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
Why try and disassociate the DNC from the politicians who run under their banner and receive money from their coffers?

As I said before, the DNC isn't universally loved and respected by people who vote for Democrats and people who run as Democrats. It looks to me like you've started using the term because of the negative connotations which arose during the '16 Sanders/Clinton debacle and I think it detracts from your argument making you appear less than objective. Of course you're free to use it — I just wanted to know what your rationale was as we don't see everyone using the term that way.
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 02:02 pm
@hightor,
Quote:
As I said before, the DNC isn't universally loved and respected by people who vote for Democrats and people who run as Democrats.

The majority of DNC voters/supporters don't feel the way you do, they don't understand politics as well as you do, to dislike the party in general. Some of them are starting to see the light though. #walkaway

Quote:
It looks to me like you've started using the term because of the negative connotations which arose during the '16 Sanders/Clinton debacle and I think it detracts from your argument making you appear less than objective.

I started using it because there should be a direct correlation between Democrats and the DNC. It has nothing to do with Sanders and Clinton although it should have been investigated by the media, but to them it was a non story, their chosen candidate was the one doing the screwing so they weren't going to say anything.

Quote:
Of course you're free to use it — I just wanted to know what your rationale was as we don't see everyone using the term that way.

It should be used more often, as it actually represents the way things are. If you are a Democrat, then you have a direct connection to the DNC as they funded your campaign and you ran under their platform. If they don't want the association, then run with another political party. That's right, the DNC is the deep pockets of left-wing politics. You don't have the DNC "blessing" you aren't getting any cash or backing. In this respect the GOP/RNC is no different, that's the reason I left the party after the 2012 elections.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Oct, 2018 09:13 pm
Now in an interview with “60 Minutes” Trump says that global warming is not a hoax. He really does not seem to know what it is. It could be a 400 lb. man in his basement sitting on his bed causing it. But Trump is not sure it may just be a cycle that will reset by itself. But Trump wants to make sure it will not cost any billionaire a penny in lost business to do anything about it. Like smoking as long as the consequences are way off in the future why not smoke today that is the way it has been with global warming the consequences have been far off in the future, but the latest UN report puts the dire consequences in the near future, in the lifetime of most of the current world’s population, not the distant future. Global warming will cause $54 trillion in damages.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Tue 16 Oct, 2018 09:31 pm
Many global warming deniers, like Rush Slimebaugh, can’t wait for winter so they can point out there are colder than average days and if it is colder than normal how could global warming be happening? There will always be cold days in the winter long after mankind no longer walks this earth. When scientist refer to global warming they are talking about the average temperature over a year’s time and the average temperature of the entire area of the earth. A cold spell with below average temperatures is more than offset by longer hot spells in the summer and other areas where the winter was milder than normal. Many people think how could a couple of degrees of warming possibly make a difference? Take an ounce weight off of one of the wheels on your car and it will shake all over even though the car weighs 4,000 lb. that one ounce will make the ride uncomfortable. I bought a used Jeep Cherokee I drove it in town before I bought it and it was fine. When I took it up highway speed it shook so bad that it was hard to hold in the road. The used car lot I bought it from had replaced several front-end parts. But as soon as the tires were balanced the car was fine. The previous owner kept his new tires and the replacements were not balanced. The environment is like that wheel, it is balanced when it is knocked out of balance the consequences can be severe.

The oceans are heat sinks and they store the energy from temperature. A one degree increase in the ocean temperature can increase the intensity of a storm by a factor of 10. When you look at a body as big as the ocean a 1-degree increase is a tremendous amount of energy. Global warming scientist now believe that the most severe effects of global warming are going to happen much sooner than previously thought and at a lower temperature increase.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Wed 17 Oct, 2018 09:12 pm
Trump is a world class swindler. You can skate for a while but sooner or later what is done in the dark will come to light and the Trump swindles are now being bought to light. There have been several books that have mentioned the Trump” swindles but they had no idea how complex the swindles were and how much Trump made off of even the swindles that failed to be built. The method is simple enough it is often used by stock swindlers, it is called pump and dump, they build up a stock’s value way above it’s actual worth to sell it to unsuspecting victims. They then sell their stock at a high price before it hits bottom getting rich in the process. The victims lose their life savings. But according to a recent ruling in Trump’s favor this is not lying it is “rhetorical hyperbole” in other words that is lying when rich.
The name of the article is “Pump and Trump.” The question is why was Trump running around lose and not in jail instead of running for president? Trump’s scams were so well documented, but nobody bothered to prosecute. Trump’s role in the Apprentice facilitated the pumping up the real estate scams. Rich criminals are not prosecuted nearly as vigorously as poor criminals. A thief robs a gas station and gets $50. He is prosecuted and goes to jail. Trump steals $50 million from investors and gets elected president, go figure.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Oct, 2018 08:45 pm
Trump does not seem to be bothered by any country that abuses human rights. Saudi Araba’s killing of a Washington Post journalist that criticized the Saudi government does not really concern Trump and why should it? Conmen by nature are never concerned about human rights. To conmen people are only victims. Do you think Trump was ever concerned about taking his victims life saving in one of his condo swindles? I can tell you it never crossed his mind. Trump grew up with the mafia they were in business with his dad. You can imagine the stories he heard when he was growing up. The mafia frequently killed people in that period of time. Trump also did business with the mafia when he was building Trump Tower. When no one else could get concrete in New York because of a strike the mafia made sure Trump Towers got concrete. Would Trump be worried about a journalist that criticized his country’s leader? Trump describes the American press as enemies of the people. If Trump thought, he could get away with it he would kill a bunch of reporters just like the Saudi prince. Trump greatly admires the Saudi’s actions and wishes he could do the same.

Trump sees nothing at all wrong with Putin having people killed or Kim Jong Un having his brother killed it is just business there is nothing personal. Trump grew up among people that believed murder was just an ordinary way of doing business. You can hear it in Trump’s terminology.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Fri 19 Oct, 2018 08:55 pm
@hightor,
The Republicans previewed their new strategy for the election today. The new commercial depicts the opposition as a mob getting ready to overrun the government. The commercial shows pictures of the protests over Kavanaugh’s confirmation. Of course, it makes mention of the fact that both Trump and Kavanaugh will be impeached if the democrats take control of the House.

Surprise, surprise, now Republicans have suddenly decided that Obamacare is not so bad after all. One of the things that the Republicans voted to eliminate when they voted tried to eliminate Obamacare was the of preexisting conditions. Even Scott Walker, the Republican Governor of Wisconsin, is now campaigning to keep the coverage for preexisting conditions. If the public’s memory is not too short they will remember these same Republicans being fiercely against all of Obamacare. The Republicans were successful in eliminating the requirement that everyone buy health insurance. The problem is that there is no such thing as a free lunch. If people can ride free until they get seriously ill and they need a half a million in medical expenses they will simply wait until they are seriously ill. You can’t have coverage for preexisting conditions without the mandate that everyone buy insurance otherwise the cost of health insurance would be over $500,000 a year. The Republicans are like a local politician who would be on a horse riding one way but if you waited for a while he would be on the same horse riding the other way.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sat 20 Oct, 2018 09:55 pm
Trump is so fond of using superlatives when they do not apply to him but there is one superlative that more than applies to him world’s greatest conman. The heroes’ tale is a story that mankind never grows tired of. If you are a politician and can cast yourself in the role of hero, you will garner a loyal following. Joseph Campbell study of world religions showed that all religions are based on a variant of the heroes’ tale. In the heroes’ tale the hero must successfully overcome an enemy or a difficult task. The knights of old were heroes because they slayed the dragons and when there were no more dragons there were no more knights, but one has to remember that dragons were never real they were always imaginary. So, slaying an imaginary enemy is as good as slaying a real enemy.

Trump cast himself as the hero during the 2016 election he openly told his supporters that he was the only one that could save the country, but he still needed an enemy to overcome. The enemy Trump chose was the illegal aliens. He could use them as a straw man and a punching bag to make himself look as if he had courage the very same man who had no courage getting five deferments from the draft. Now Trump is resurrecting the same con he used in 2016. Suddenly 4,000 illegal immigrants begin a march toward the border dominating the news cycle. Trump then tells his incredibly naïve followers that George Sores, a supporter of democratic political causes, is funding the illegal immigrants march without any evidence to make Trump look bad. This march has centered the attention on Trump and let him play the hero. Who do you think paid for this march? Who stands to gain?

For years illegal aliens have picked the crops all across America because few Americans would work that hard for so little pay and few people paid any attention. Trump himself imports illegals aliens to work at his golf courses and resorts but you will never hear him tell his supporters how many illegals he has personally bought into the country. Trump gets permits to bring them into the country, but does anybody believe that they go back to Mexico after they leave Trump’s employment? Every time a democrat holds a rally they should point the thousands of illegal aliens Trump is responsible for bringing into America and they should show how many remained here as illegal aliens. Since Trump had to secure permits the number of Mexicans he bought into America is a matter of public record.
0 Replies
 
Zardoz
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Oct, 2018 09:17 pm
When I worked the 2004 presidential election for John Kerry we went to some out of the way places to talk to union members about the upcoming election. At one house far out in the country we talked to an old man who said we need not worry about how he was going to vote. He described himself as a yellow dog democrat. I had never heard the term and inquired as to what he meant by it. He said it was simple if a republican was running against a yellow dog he would vote for the yellow dog. That is pretty much how politics used to work. If you were a democrat when you went to vote in a general election you only had to pull one lever and that voted for all the democrats on the ballot.

Political parties are much like basket ball teams they need to work to gather to reach their goal. If the Los Angeles Lakers were in a playoff game and two of its players decided they were Californians not Los Angeles Lakers and started passing the ball to the other team every time they got the ball it would be impossible to ever win a game. When you vote you vote, you vote for a political philosophy. It is almost as if you had voted for the Los Angeles Lakers to represent you. You would not vote for players on the opposite team to play on the Lakers. If you did vote for players from different teams to play for the Lakers, you would have chaos this is what has happened to our political system. When Senator Manchin voted to confirm judge Kavanaugh he said that basically he was not a democrat he was a West Virginian. If the eleven players on a football team each decided to go their own direction, they could never score a goal and a political party is no different.

Today on Meet the Press a Republican announced the Republican platform is to cut social security and Medicare because it is going to run the deficit up. The Republican said the cost of serving the huge national debt is now more than the cost of the military and something must be cut, and it is not the trillion-dollar tax cuts for billionaires. The problem with the Republican lie is that social security still has a $2.89 trillion trust fund. So social security is not adding one penny to the national debt, but the tax cuts added a trillion dollars to the national debt. The question now is will the American people vote to cut their social security and Medicare? I guess we will know soon. The Republicans tried this before under baby Bush. Trump is a hell of a conman and I have talked some people who have been take by the same conman three times and asked me if they should do business with the conman again and it looks like that is the case here.


0 Replies
 
 

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