63
   

House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:19 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
Every single one of them is living in some la la land where the problems of this day can be pushed forever into tomorrow without resolution
The Left is just as loony tunes as the Right, and mental health services at any price will not solve the problem. The mass mental illness that we see will not be fixed until this civilization is finished dieing and we get the next one built. Sending individuals to the shrink for a 72 hold and then follow on treatment for anything less than danger to self or others is a very expensive band-aid that we can not afford. This kind of thing must be done in group setting and outpatient. It will not solve the problem, but it is the best we can do to keep people functioning in the meantime. Firefly's desire to address the problem with the criminal justice system and involuntary holds in mental health facilities is dumb, and disgusting. A little more common sense and compassion would be nice to see from her.
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:39 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:
Of course there is no direct discernible connection between what Loughner did and the gun imagery message that Sarah Palin chose to promote--as far as we know now--because we don't really yet know what Loughner's motives, and influences were when he entered that Safeway supermarket
Of course there is no direct discernible connection between what Loughner did and global warming, as far as we know now, because we don't really yet know what Loughner's motives, and influences were when he entered that Safeway supermarket. I would add also that we don't know of any discernable connection between Loughner and firefly, as far as we know now, but we do not yet know all of the influences and motives yet.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:52 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Every single one of them is living in some la la land where the problems of this day can be pushed forever into tomorrow without resolution
The Left is just as loony tunes as the Right, and mental health services at any price will not solve the problem. The mass mental illness that we see will not be fixed until this civilization is finished dieing and we get the next one built. Sending individuals to the shrink for a 72 hold and then follow on treatment for anything less than danger to self or others is a very expensive band-aid that we can not afford. This kind of thing must be done in group setting and outpatient. It will not solve the problem, but it is the best we can do to keep people functioning in the meantime. Firefly's desire to address the problem with the criminal justice system and involuntary holds in mental health facilities is dumb, and disgusting. A little more common sense and compassion would be nice to see from her.
First of all; civilizations are built out of conquest, and are divided societies, and while I may agree we are a civilization of sorts we are not civil, and are not the nation united to achieve our common rights, and commonwealth as was intended by those who wrote the constitution... But they divided us to keep their place and position, and in all the time between theirs and ours, the division between those with, and those without has only grown more severe... People can no longer deny their basic unhappiness, their fears, their hopelessness, their disappointment... They can no long bridge with their own imaginations what this land is supposed to represent, and what it means in fact... They are mad, and some are only more mad... Those who still have something and fear to see it snatched away when they think it will put them on the same level as those people they have forever held in contempt are the maddest of all... Tabes dorsalis, Paresis; general paralysis of the insane is their symptom and the illness is an overdose of patriotism while an outlaw economy is destroying them all in turn... They don't know what to do, but they are looking for the opportunity to do it... They are a powder keg looking for a match, ready to blow friend or foe limb from limb... We have before us on the pages of history numerous societies which could not adapt to reality and change their forms of government and instead let their forms destroy them... Where are the Romans, and where are the Athenians... Where are the Romanovs, and the Bourbons and the Tudors??? Where the people have survived they have crushed those who oppressed them and made their lives meaningless... We have to make that choice too; whether we will live meaningless lives crowded in with madness and hopelessness, or whether we will find the nerves and the steady hands to govern ourselves and our behavior, and give sanity a safe home where madness can no longer reign imperial...

It takes nothing more than a change of minds to change forms... One only has to defend the changes one makes to be free... But to think to ride a dying form to a better place is fools play... It never happens that way... People must take a hand in their own destinies... They must kill off old forms or risk their own deaths in the dying of it... A dying form as ours is, can offer no creditable defense against foreign powers, but like our government, sells out to them and gives up all to save itself... We cannot allow that, but must at some point wrest power over our own lives from our government and our economy, and not because it is fun, or easy; but because it is absolutly essential to our common survival... It is the government and the economy and the churches that have put us all at odds... They all have to go...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 06:53 pm
@okie,
Quote:
because we don't really yet know what Loughner's motives, and influences were when he entered that Safeway supermarket
if he was crazy then motive is irrelevant.
okie
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 07:02 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, I do think there is one aspect of this that bears more research. If simply crazy, he could have or probably would have shot virtually anyone that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he chose to pick on a politician. I do wonder if some kind of political thought process was going on in his head, and so I am curious if he did spend more time reading certain political authors? For example, if we had found out by now that he had been listening to Rush every day and also subscribed to his newsletter, do you seriously think we would not be hearing about that on every news report every hour on the hour? We know that was not the case, but what was his selected sources of political information, if he had any at all? Since the Left started down that road, I think they owe us the honesty to report where that road actually leads.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 07:02 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

firefly wrote:
Of course there is no direct discernible connection between what Loughner did and the gun imagery message that Sarah Palin chose to promote--as far as we know now--because we don't really yet know what Loughner's motives, and influences were when he entered that Safeway supermarket
Of course there is no direct discernible connection between what Loughner did and global warming, as far as we know now, because we don't really yet know what Loughner's motives, and influences were when he entered that Safeway supermarket. I would add also that we don't know of any discernable connection between Loughner and firefly, as far as we know now, but we do not yet know all of the influences and motives yet.


Fame is the motive behind all infamy...
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 07:13 pm
@okie,
Quote:
If simply crazy, he could have or probably would have shot virtually anyone that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but he chose to pick on a politician
We dont know who she was to him, because we cant assume that with his mind as it was that he saw things as we see them.....IE, we dont know if he was crazy, and if so how much. Much more likely than that she is a democrat or that she is politician is that to him she represented authority, and particular individual in authority that he had negative personal experience with. I think it is fair to say that we can assume that he is not so crazy that he does not know who the authority figures are. More than that we need to wait and see.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:30 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
if he was crazy then motive is irrelevant

That's not true.

We don't know that he is crazy. What people describe is an unstable individual, somewhat creepy, with somewhat strange ideas, who was sometimes given to disruptive behaviors, but that doesn't make him crazy. No one, for instance, has reported that he experienced hallucinations or mentioned hallucinations to them, or that he reported what sounded like full blown delusions.

He acted in a very organized manner in the hours leading up to the shooting. He checked into a motel, called a friend and left him a message, and he posted a comment on his MySpace page. He brought in film to be developed at a Walgreens and bought a black bag to carry things. He went to a Walmart and bought ammunition. He picked up the film he had developed. He took a cab to the supermarket and went into the supermarket to get change to pay the cab driver. He paid the driver. Then he went back into the supermarket and started shooting.

He carried out a crime which was planned and organized. And he apparently had at least one definite intended target--a political/governmental figure--a member of Congress. What motivated all of this is important to understand because it is an element of his crime. Although I suspect we may not learn more about that until this case goes to trial.

Look, Timothy McVeigh hoped to start a revolution by blowing up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, and he wasn't crazy.



BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:55 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
We don't know that he is crazy. What people describe is an unstable individual, somewhat creepy, with somewhat strange ideas, who was sometimes given to disruptive behaviors, but that doesn't make him crazy. No one, for instance, has reported that he experienced hallucinations or mentioned hallucinations to them, or that he reported what sounded like full blown delusions.


He kill a nine year olds and a large numbers of others not just a congress woman he might had a problem with.

Crazy or not crazy he is a mad dog and in any sane society should be put down as a mad dog.

Who care what does or does not go on in his mind beyond that.

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 08:58 pm
It's nice to see a conservative Republican, like Joe Scarborough, calling out people like Palin and Beck for their gun-themed violent rhetoric, and chastising other members of his own party for not doing so as well...Bravo, Joe!
Quote:

Moving past right-wing rhetoric
By: Joe Scarborough
January 18, 2011

We get it, Sarah Palin. You’re not morally culpable for the tragic shooting in Tucson, Ariz. All of us around the “Morning Joe” table agree, even if we were stunned that you would whine about yourself on Facebook as a shattered family prepared to bury their 9-year-old girl.

The same goes for you, Glenn Beck. You’ve attacked your political opponents with words designed to inspire hatred and mind-bending conspiracy theories from fans. Calling the president a racist, Marxist and fascist may be reprehensible, but it did not lead a mentally disturbed man to take a Glock to Rep. Gabrielle Giffords’s “Congress on Your Corner” event.

Good on ya, buddy. You weren’t personally responsible for the slaughter at the Safeway. Maybe you can put it on a poster at the next “Talkers” convention.

But before you and the pack of right-wing polemicists who make big bucks spewing rage on a daily basis congratulate yourselves for not being responsible for Jared Lee Loughner’s rampage, I recommend taking a deep breath. Just because the dots between violent rhetoric and violent actions don’t connect in this case doesn’t mean you can afford to ignore the possibility — or, as many fear, the inevitability — that someone else will soon draw the line between them.

Actually, someone already has. When you get a minute, Google “Byron Williams” and “Tides Foundation” to see just how thin a layer of ice Beck skates on every day.

Beck and Palin aside, I do understand why other conservatives pushed back on the media’s initial response to the Giffords shooting. The avalanche of condemnations that came pouring down on Palin, Fox News and the tea party were off base and offensive. Most of the same outlets calling for restraint after the Fort Hood shooting showed no such discipline after Tucson. The fact that the left predictably played to type did more to unite the conservative movement than any event since President Barack Obama’s election.

Now that the right has proved to the world that it was wronged, this would be a good time to prevent the next tragedy from destroying its political momentum. Despite what we eventually learned about the shooter in Tucson, should the right have really been so shocked that many feared a political connection between the heated rhetoric of 2010 and the shooting of Giffords?

Who, other than Palin’s most strident supporters, was not troubled by the bull’s-eye target over Giffords’s district? Or the political advertisement promoting the removal of Giffords from office with the firing of a “fully automatic M16” with her opponent? Or the gunned-down congresswoman’s own warning to NBC’s Chuck Todd that violent words have consequences?

And who on the right is really stupid enough to not understand that the political movement that has a near monopoly on gun imagery may be the first focus of an act associated with gun violence? As a conservative who had a 100 percent rating with the National Rifle Association and the Gun Owners of America over my four terms in Congress, I wonder why some on the right can’t defend the Second Amendment without acting like jackasses. While these types regularly attack my calls for civility, it is their reckless rhetoric that does the most to hurt the cause.

Which brings us back to Palin and the GOP’s field of 2012 candidates.

In Palin’s Facebook manifesto last Wednesday, she didn’t condemn extreme speech and its potential for violence. Instead, she seemed to say, “Deal with it.” Then she proved it, ineptly and offensively naming herself the victim of a “blood libel,” which generations of persecuted Jews know carries connotations much more serious than a drop in the polls.

We know Palin won’t call out irresponsible language or lead the discussion back to civility, but who will?

Where was former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, who covets the moral authority to lead his party in 2012? Is there anything — anything at all — a member of his own party can say that offends this man?

Or former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, who refused to call out his state’s best-known congresswoman, Republican Rep. Michele Bachmann, for saying that the best way to oppose energy legislation is to be “armed and dangerous.”

Or former House Speaker Newt Gingrich? Oh, wait. Never mind.

From their defensive crouch, these candidates are clearly scared to do the right thing by calling out reckless rhetoric. So let me try a different tack by speaking to their politically expedient minds.

Overblown rhetoric is tailor-made for midterm elections like 1994 and 2010, when a conservative movement rises up to check a progressive tide. It’s why Republicans gave Gingrich the keys to the car in 1995.

As the liberal president is checked by the conservative Congress, a new presidential race approaches, the voting base expands and the keys to the car get turned over to more unifying figures. This explains how a party could move from Gingrich in 1995 to Bob Dole as its nominee in 1996.

Presidential-year elections are driven by a completely different demographic. Good luck trying that “Second Amendment remedies” crap on swing voters in the suburbs. It just won’t fly. And neither will the cacophony of crazy talk that has gripped the far right for the past two years.

It’s time to grow up, act responsibly and start planning for the 2012 election.

If you can’t be civil because it’s the right thing to do, then do it because it is in your party’s best interest.

A guest columnist for POLITICO, Joe Scarborough hosts “Morning Joe” on MSNBC and represented Florida’s 1st Congressional District in the House of Representatives from 1995 to 2001.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47705.html

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:20 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
It's nice to see a conservative Republican, like Joe Scarborough, calling out people like Palin and Beck for their gun-themed violent rhetoric, and chastising other members of his own party for not doing so as well...Bravo, Joe!


The happening at that store have zero to do with gun-themed violent rhetoric such might had accounted for the attempted killing of a congress person but not the cold blood killing of a nine year old girl.

OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:26 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
It's nice to see a conservative Republican, like Joe Scarborough, calling out people like Palin and Beck for their gun-themed violent rhetoric, and chastising other members of his own party for not doing so as well...Bravo, Joe!
BillRM wrote:
The happening at that store have zero to do with gun-themed violent rhetoric such might had accounted for the attempted killing of a congress person but not the cold blood killing of a nine year old girl.
Very well said, Bill.
Your points r superbly well taken.

The left just hates anti-left rhetoric
and leaps upon the chaotic mayhem of a deranged mind
to fake justification of its degradation of free speech.





David
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:39 pm
@firefly,
It is as good and explanation as the interpretation that it is a "future" threat. The point is that both are likely outcomes and I believe my interpretation is correct.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 09:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
if he was crazy then motive is irrelevant.


bs - it is relevant for legal, political and Psychology purposes - duh
BillW
 
  3  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:04 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
The left just hates anti-left rhetoric
and leaps upon the chaotic mayhem of a deranged mind
to fake justification of its degradation of free speech.


The right is paranoid that something will come out - and it matters not if the killer used idiotic right wing violent language to act on or not. The hate filled, gun violent rhetoric of the right sucks - it is WRONG before WRONG now and WRONG in the future. Republicans own the NeoNazis, the KKK, racists and the White Supremacists. They will not disavow them, tell them to get lost, tell them they don't want them. They want their votes and they talk to them through guns and violence. The right is mean, hateful and violent. And, it has got to stop and is WRONG !

Any forum that can be used to say this - is justified, and if there can be useful laws passed to get rid of people killing gun paraphernalia, that is better for society.

Now, you can make your point -

Quote:
Very well said, Bill.
Your points r superbly well taken.
plainoldme
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:09 pm
@Fido,
Interesting take, Fido. Thank you for your thoughts on disrespecting the voters who elect a person.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:10 pm
@Fido,
You're on a roll today.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:13 pm
@okie,
Quote:
I do wonder if some kind of political thought process was going on in his head, and so I am curious if he did spend more time reading certain political authors?


Probably Leo Strauss
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
Kelly's campaign event website has a stern-looking photo of the former Marine in military garb holding his weapon. It includes the headline: "Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly."


What a doofus. Surely this asshole was never elected.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 18 Jan, 2011 10:18 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
What people describe is an unstable individual, somewhat creepy, with somewhat strange ideas, who was sometimes given to disruptive behaviors, but that doesn't make him crazy


That could also describe david or H2O or okie or ican.

Quote:

He acted in a very organized manner in the hours leading up to the shooting


This is what the prosecuting attorney will point out.

Quote:
He checked into a motel,


That brings back memories of James Earl Ray.
 

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