House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

@engineer,

wow hating a whole country for the actions of a few individuals. Wow I see that you are right, There are some profound ethical dilemas there. I suppose if anyone look back far enough in their past............ and if they try hard enought........... they could find an entire comunity or group to hate......... But hey thats a similiarty that we all have...... Wouldnt it be great if we concetrated on our similiarities more than our differences Smile

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Bill W has found a cite noting that Sirhan Sirhan was raised as a Christian. I accept that as making the possibility that he was motivated by fanatical Islamist zeal remote in the extreme - in short out of the question. We don't know his (or anyone's) internal motives for such deeds. We can only draw inferences from their words and facts established about their lives. In any event that question is settled. Thanks to Bill.

Most people are more sensitive to criticisms of their own ideas and loyalties than they are to similar criticisms of the other guy's. I believe that fact of human nature is at work to a very pronounced degree in the tempest brewing in this teapot over the supposed effect of Republican (or even Tea party) criticism of the sainted Obama or of Democrats & Progressives generally. It is fair to say that Democrat partisans were extremely critical of President Bush, VP Cheney and many actions of their administration, -- just as are Republican partisans critical of Obama and the current Administration.

Politicians of both sides speak of "targeting" this or that Congressman, Senator, district or state in a coming election, and no one makes a big deal out of it or assumes that the statement implies murder. The map on the previous page does indeed include surveyors marks and not images of a gunsight reticule to indicate "targeted" districts. I have no idea what was implied or intended by the author or editor, but the inference that this was tantamount to the suggestion of murder or violence is frankly laughable.

The political rhetoric of American politics has always been coarse, often vulgar, and inflammatory. It doesn't take much research to establish that what we are seeing was also going on in elections early in the 19th century and afterwards. It isn't new: indeed it is the normal pattern.

The history of political assassins is replete with obsessive, often deranged individuals, and salted by only a few paid killers. Examples of the former abound, particularly in the recent history of this country. Self-serving hand-wringing about the supposed effects of coarse political rhetoric on such people is both foolish and hypocritical. The assumption that only the coarse rhetoric of one's political opponent has those effects - and that one's own is entirely benign - are obviously deceitful and contemptable.

By the way - after the attempted assassination of President Reagan (by a similarly mentally unstable individual) I didn't hear any suggestions by Republicans that offensive Democrat political rhetoric was the cause.

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Enough talk about rhetoric. Talk about what has actually happened. We can argue about the symmetry or asymmetry of inflammatory rhetoric until we are blue in the face. The fact is that the actions are not symmetrical. Liberals are certainly guilty of ugly and hateful signs that said irresponsible and very offensive things during the Bush years, but focusing on that as if it balances out the current climate is such a waste of time.

A better use of time is a constructive discussion on how you address your own side off the fence. People are divided and turned off from external criticism, so the only place people are going to respond from in internally. Liberals need to own the emotionalism employed in the Bush years, and Conservatives need to do the same now. We can't live on liberal and conservative islands and just hurl cannon balls at each other forever. I'm not shy about addressing people for whom I agree with their policies but disagree with their politics. I think the easy road is to forgive bad behavior for sincere intent. That's not how we grow or develop.

Basically, stop turning this into some sort of one-up game to earn political capital. It's pointless. People are already going to think what they wish about it. We don't need political pundits validating the most insane of us.

A
R
T

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@failures art,

but Liberal's signs are usually spelled correctly...

(ok, i'll stop)

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@Rockhead,

Yes, and so an art major with perfect spelling and grammar who chooses the highly legible helvetica to convey their hatred is no better than those who spell things wrong in crayon.

Isn't the whole point of the spelling criticism is that the signs make people hard to take seriously? If so, then a hateful sign with perfect spelling and grammar is far more dangerous. Hatred should have no path to legitimacy.

I'm not really addressing you Rockhead, just typing out my thoughts.

A
R
T

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@failures art,

the irony makes them more fun to read.

but hatred sucks, no matter whose side owns it...

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@Cycloptichorn,

I said - as an example of how mental illness can skew thoughts:

Quote:

David Berkowitz heard the dog's barking specifically to HIM

To which Lash replied:

Quote:

Obviously, we should consider censoring that dog.

Yeah - funny.

Quote:

Really, we are not going to live in a society that speaks based on what psychopath may be listening. If I say "I hope a bus hits her," and you run over her with a bus, please hold your breath for me to feel guilty.

Well, now that you've given me a clue about how little thought and responsibility you take for the impact your words might have on WHOEVER may hear them, holding my breath would be a waste of time, wouldn't it?

I'd just figure you were gonna be who you want to be and say what you want to say regardless of what the results might be.

I don't know - I always figure words have consequences. I would never advocate violence figuratively and certainly not literally.

And it makes not a whit of difference to me whether a Democrat or Republican did this. It was irresponsible and inflammatory. If I'd even implicitely advocated something like this, and this event resulted - I'd feel guilty - but that's just me- and apparently Cyclo:

Quote:

Don't you think this is a little bit of an over-simplification of the issue?

What if you spent every day talking about what a threat some lady is, to a large group of people? How we would all be better off without her? How that lady is directly threatening the lives of everyone in America because of her ideas?

What if you had drawn a picture of the lady getting ran over by, let's call it, the 'freedom bus.' And other people talk about killing this lady too - though of course they carefully use 'code words,' so that you can't come right out and accuse someone of calling for her death.

Still think all that's cool? Wouldn't feel bad at all?

I mean, I would feel bad. Personally.

Cycloptichorn

URL: http://able2know.org/topic/166305-44

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@aidan,

JTT asked:

Quote:

When might the world expect to see the US grow up and act responsibly?

to which Lash replied:

Quote:

Nevah!!!!!

This is exactly what makes me despair about our country. And what I can't defend on a day to day basis when people over here question the sanity and intelligence of Americans.

And it doesn't matter that this **** has been going on forever - if it brings about results like this - why the **** CAN'T we 'grow up and act responsibly?'

In fact I was just having a discussion with someone today - a Welshman- who said, 'The problem I have with America is that I love the idea of it so much, that I can't stand to watch how it (that idea) is constantly mangled and perverted- it's such a horrible waste.'
Then he said, 'The definition of insanity is to keep performing the same action in the same way and expect different results.'

I could only shake my head sadly and agree with him.

I pray to God you're wrong - I hope we do grow up and act responsibly some day soon.

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And I say this as an American who loves her country and its people and wishes better for them/us/my children and their children when they come along.
It can be different - but only if we make it different- and quit defending politically partisan bullshit by saying, 'It's always been this way - everyone does it.'

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@aidan,

Hey yall

this is not of the subject at hand. But I have a very smart kid that decided that he wanted to do some report for school on me......... boy when I was stationed in Saudi, There were some people that followed us around when we were in their tows, And they said "dont do that" and "dont do this" Of course because we dint know the customs of the land. We called them 'the moral police'. Hehe well wile I am asking this favor I feel like one of them. Smile

I know evreyone here is smart enough to substute curse words for others that represent the same thing. So...... for the sake of a kid learning from wise people such as yourselfs........ just in case........... that kid wonders into this conversation. Well you know its the right thing to do............. Thank You Smile

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

By the way - after the attempted assassination of President Reagan (by a similarly mentally unstable individual) I didn't hear any suggestions by Republicans that offensive Democrat political rhetoric was the cause.

True, and I don 't remember any demands forthcoming for gun control.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

True, and I don 't remember any demands forthcoming for gun control

It took a long time to become law...but the Brady Law seems to have been forgotten by you.

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@aidan,

JTT asked:

Quote:

When might the world expect to see the US grow up and act responsibly?

to which Lash replied:

Quote:

Nevah!!!!!

aidan wrote:

This is exactly what makes me despair about our country.
And what I can't defend on a day to day basis when people over here question
the sanity and intelligence of Americans.

If I were there, I coud handle it.
I 'd have FUN with them; (if thay spoke clearly, like the Queen or the Princes).

aidan wrote:

And it doesn't matter that this **** has been going on forever - if it brings about results like this - why the **** CAN'T we 'grow up and act responsibly?'

WHAT the hell does that MEAN?????
Y, O,Y be so damn VAGUE???????

Is there a reason that u cannot be specific
and explicit as to what u want us to DO ?

I suspect that what u want us to DO
is to throw our personal freedom in the garbage,
along with our guns, and assume a demeanor of docility,
simply obaying whatever our damned employee,
government, tells us to DO.

In England, sovereignty is in their government,
which holds them in SUBJECTion.
In America, sovereignty is in the citizen
who employs government.

aidan wrote:

In fact I was just having a discussion with someone today - a Welshman- who said, 'The problem I have with America is that I love the idea of it so much, that I can't stand to watch how it (that idea) is constantly mangled and perverted- it's such a horrible waste.'
Then he said, 'The definition of insanity is to keep performing the same action in the same way and expect different results.'

I have never expected different results.

I only expected to live in FREEDOM
from government interference.
HUMAN NATURE has not changed; it will not change.
That was NEVER anticipated nor expected,
contrary to the Welchman. His premise was flawed.

What I expect (I think we all expect)
is that crime will continue as it has thru out history
(and, presumably, before history began),
including robberies and murders like these.
The best we can do is to prepare the victims
to defend themselves.
Thay need to be well trained and well armed
to control such future emergencies as arise
so that the good guy will have as much chance as possible to win.

The stupidity of gun control is exceeded only by its FUTILITY.
The filosofy of gun control is the filosofy of abject surrender to evil,
hoping and grovelling for its mercy.
Not me; not here.

The filosofy of gun control is to put a MONOPOLY
of POWER into the hands of the evil predator, leaving his victim helpless.
That is giving the evil predator what he wants.

aidan wrote:

I could only shake my head sadly and agree with him.

I pray to God you're wrong - I hope we do grow up and act responsibly some day soon.

If half the Congress got shot,
with myself painfully wounded among them,
I woud STILL tell the honest, historical truth about the Bill of Rights,
as the USSC did in the HELLER case and again in the McDonald case.

It does not matter how much we "grow" Rebecca.
The truth of the historical development of American freedom remains the same,
whether the Welshman likes it or not.
The Welshman never understood the basic principle of America.

Personal freedom is inversely proportional
to the domestic jurisdiction of government.
That 's what the Bill of Rights is for: to cripple government 37 ways.

David

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@okie,

Okie,

Was Sirhan Sirhan a Muslim?

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Do you think we'll hear less from some Republicans about "Second Amendment solutions" now?

What a horrible euphemism. They don't even have the guts to say what they really mean, the shooting of political opponents.

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@hawkeye10,

David wrote:

True, and I don 't remember any demands forthcoming for gun control

hawkeye10 wrote:

It took a long time to become law...but the Brady Law seems to have been forgotten by you.

That happened after Reagan, after Bush
and halfway thru Clinton's Administration, around maybe 1994.
That was the reason that Clinton lost both houses of Congress.
Clinton admitted it.
The House had not been in Republican hands since Roosevelt, if I remember.

I re-iterate that this did not occur because Reagan got shot in 1981.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

no it happened because brady got shot, while standing next to reagan who also got shot

just wait, someone will try to use the little girl to get something going, will it work who knows, but the brady bill came out of the incidents surrounding the reagan shooting, to discount reagan in the equation is a we bit nit picky

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@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

no it happened because brady got shot, while standing next to reagan who also got shot

just wait, someone will try to use the little girl to get something going, will it work who knows, but the brady bill came out of the incidents surrounding the reagan shooting, to discount reagan in the equation is a we bit nit picky

I 'm pretty sure that Reagan woud have vetoed that bill.
He was a good Constitutionalist.

I don' t believe that the gun Hinckley used
was affected by that law; not sure.

Reagan was not shot with a shoulder weapon.

David

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AN ARMED RESISTANCE
YIELDS A BETTER RESULT (WITH LUCK).

A husband and wife were upstairs in their home
in San Antonio, Texas when they heard a loud noise
and went to investigate. The couple came across
an intruder who had broken in through a glass door.
The wife quickly retrieved a gun and fired at the criminal, killing him.

Already patrolling the neighborhood due to several
recent burglaries, police responded quickly to the
scene and were able to capture the deceased
intruder’s suspected accomplice.

With a recent crime wave in the neighborhood,
neighbors were supportive of the armed woman,
with one stating, “She did the right thing.”

Police did not charge her and warned other
potential criminals in San Antonio about the dangers
of crime. San Antonio Police Chief William McManus
remarked that criminals “should be thinking, this
could be the last home I break into, and,
“People who live in San Antonio are well aware of
the law and have acted accordingly when people
are in their homes.” (The San Antonio Express-News, San Antonio, Texas 01/06/11)

It is better to HAVE a gun and not need one,
than it is to NEED a gun and NOT have one.

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@OmSigDAVID,

There was a similar story in Milwaukee a few years ago where a man heard these noises in his house (there were also instances of break-ins in the neighborhood).
The man retrieved his hand gun and shot the intruder, killing him. The intruder happened to be the mans son who was coming home from college .

A gun has zero conscience

.

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House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

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