63
   

House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

 
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:39 pm
Just to throw gas on the fire..

Calling for the death of people IS crossing the line according to the courts. Even if you only post a picture of the person as "wanted" and cross them out as they are eliminated.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-09-07/news/17392670_1_punitive-damage-award-appeals-court
Quote:
A federal appeals court slashed punitive damages -- from $108.5 million to $4.7 million -- Tuesday for abortion doctors whose names and addresses were put on "Wanted" posters and a Web site that crossed out the names of slain physicians.
...
A federal jury in Portland found in 1999 that the American Coalition of Life Activists had violated the plaintiffs' rights under a federal law prohibiting the threat or use of force to impede access to reproductive services. The appeals court upheld the verdict in 2002, saying the defendants had crossed the line between free speech and violent threats, but ordered reconsideration of the jury's $108.5 million punitive damage award.

The trial judge then reaffirmed the punitive damage award, saying the defendants' conduct had been reprehensible.


One can argue whether cross hairs are all the different from wanted posters if they wish but reprehensible is still reprehensible.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:39 pm
@djjd62,
Quote:
The official, who has been briefed on the investigation, spoke to the AP on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss details of the case.


Will there be an investigation and will this official be charged?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
This is untrue. If it was a random politician, maybe. But the fact is it wasn't; it was someone who was specifically targeted by the right-wing using violent rhetoric. Recently.


Nothing I've seen comes close to rising to the level of even being considered incitement, you can't blame the acts of a mad man on some bad metaphors, especially if said madman may not even have been paying attention to them.

Quote:
When people who are on targeting lists start showing up dead, it's not irresponsible to speculate as to whether the list was responsible for the death or not.


I have no qualm with speculation, I just think there is an obvious selection bias here where you speculate in ways that fit preconceived ideological leanings.

Not all speculation is created equal and I'm just saying this is dumb, politically biased speculation. I'm not saying it's "irresponsible", just baseless.

Quote:
Or to decry such lists and rhetoric no matter what the eventual truth of the disturbed individual is.


Sure, but I think this guilt by association gig with murder is itself one of the examples of overheated rhetoric in America. I think it's much more divisive than mere crosshair graphics and bad metaphors to play the guilt by association card the way it often is and I am choosing to decry the unreasonable decrying.

Quote:
It's not irresponsible to use the focused media attention to point out how violent right-wing rhetoric is, whether it had anything to do with this event or not.


Again, I have no idea what you mean by "responsible", I just think it's opportunistic and daft. I don't think it's going to cause anything other than a general spread of some daftitude.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:41 pm
@Rockhead,
Sorry, she's not claiming the crosshairs were surveyors' symbols.

She's correctly claiming that the graph was not used to suggest the individuals listed should be, literally, shot.
parados
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:44 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Sorry, she's not claiming the crosshairs were surveyors' symbols.

She's correctly claiming that the graph was not used to suggest the individuals listed should be, literally, shot.


That's the same argument American Coalition of Life Activists made about their "wanted" posters. They weren't suggesting the Drs be shot.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:45 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
I wouldn't be lynching Salinger either.


well it wouldn't be fair really, what with him being dead and all
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:45 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
Notice how u run away from questions that u can 't handle, coward.


cough, cough, choke
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:45 pm
@djjd62,
But it might be a safer lynching. He isn't going to fight back or be armed.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:49 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Good afternoon. I concede that I don't watch the Sunday talk shows on tv, most of which will be broadcast from AZ this week. Tough questions are earnestly not asked and then adroitly not answered.


Yeah, it's that damn liberal American media!
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:50 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
Your take on the point of the Gergen piece is quite different from mine.


Odd, because you can take the title and opening paragraphs of the article verbatim as both my position on the subject and take on the thrust of the article.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:52 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Can't control the weather. Can control violent rhetoric. This is a false analogy.


The analogy was aimed at illustrating that both could conceivably influence this event but that there is no evidence that either did.

This point is not made false in any way by your beef with my analogy and I don't know why it's so common for people to approach analogies that way (treating all analogies as analogies of comparisons, in short, refuting the apples to oranges analogy when it isn't even made).
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:53 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation wrote:

I doubt my friends here can find violence tinged quotes from elected Democrats, but have at it.


OK

Quote:
“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said at a Philadelphia fundraiser Friday night. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”


Quote:
If Latinos sit out the election instead of saying, ‘We’re going to punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us,’ if they don’t see that kind of upsurge in voting in this election, then I think it’s going to be harder and that’s why I think it’s so important that people focus on voting on November 2.”

Barrack Obama


Quote:
Bill Maher : You could have went to New Hampshire and killed two birds with one stone.
John Kerry : Or, I could have gone to 1600 Pennsylvania and killed the real bird with one stone .


Quote:
(that Senator Charles Schumer) “will put a bullet between the president’s eyes if he could get away with it.”

New York State Comptroller, Alan Hevesi


Quote:
“I yield myself two minutes. Madam speaker, I, first of all, I’m just amazed that they can’t figure out — the Republicans are worried that they can’t pay for insuring an additional 10 million children. They sure don’t care about finding $200 billion to fight the illegal war in Iraq. Where are you going to get that money? Are you going to tell us lies like you’re telling us today? Is that how you’re going to fund the war? You don’t have money to fund the war on children. But you’re going to spend it to blow up innocent people if he can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the President’s amusement.”

Rep. Pete Stark (D-Ca)


Quote:
"I want to go up to the closest white person and say: ‘You can’t understand this, it’s a black thing’ and then slap him, just for my mental health" — New York city councilman Charles Barron


Quote:
I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for . . .

Howard Dean


Quote:
You think you are big enough to make me, you little wimp? Come on. Come over here and make me, I dare you. You little fruitcake.

Rep. Pete Stark (D-Ca)


Quote:
Davis and the Jews, No Good for the Black Belt

Alabama Democratic congressional incumbent Earl Hilliard, on challenger, Artur Davis:


You're right, however, that all of the extreme vitirol and use of violent metaphors should stop.

JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:56 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
On top of that, our country spends over #$550 billion a year on "defense,"


Not to worry. Should the government decide to imprison people at will, that kind of firepower could never stand up to the well regulated militia.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 02:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

I think this issue sort of pisses of those who look at the left and right and see nothing but equivalence. It highlights the laziness of that worldview.

If they see nothing to differentiate the right and the left, then my opinion on whether some public figures were too incendiary isn't going to influence them much.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 03:01 pm
Huh. So this all happened in a vacuum. Right.
There no basis for thinking that the current political rhetoric had anything to do with these murders except that the prime TARGET was a politician and that the shooter was demonstrably opposed to said politician, her positions and the positions of her party. Just dumb luck that he chose her instead of some other political figure, for example, any other US Representative in the State of Arizona and nothing any member of the Republican Party ever said in public had any effect on his motivation at all.
Right?
Joe(no dots to connect here, please move along)Nation
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 03:05 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
lol, what a crock of horseshit. If that's the best you can find, why did you even bother?

Cycloptichorn
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 03:14 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
we are a country at war with a determined adversary


Have you heard the latest meme? Can you remember who it is today? It's Monday, so that would be the socialists, ... no wait, they're Thursday. Isn't today the Angolans? Yeah, it is and they are expected to invade through Alaska any day now.

Better clean your gun, h2oboy. This time stay at it instead of trying to use that gun oil as a Viagra substitute.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 03:15 pm
@Lash,
Do you think that there will be that kind of personal responsibility, Lash?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 03:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Michelle Bachmann said this...

Quote:
I want people in Minnesota armed and dangerous on this issue of the energy tax because we need to fight back. Thomas Jefferson told us, having a revolution every now and then is a good thing, and the people — we the people — are going to have to fight back hard if we’re not going to lose our country.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Jan, 2011 03:25 pm
@Joe Nation,
With just a few more people buying guns we will be well on our way to being another Lebanon.
0 Replies
 
 

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