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House of Reps. member Giffords shot in Arizona today

 
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:54 pm
@Lash,
I'll go out on a limb and say this guy was nucking futs long before he purchased a weapon. This doesn't happen overnight and it appears that nobody he came in contact with over the years gave two shits about his mental condition, at least not enough to bring him to the attention of authorities. The ball was dropped long ago and it's not rational to place blame on the weapon or who sold it to him.
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:54 pm
@Butrflynet,
Great points Butrflynet. I have another couple questions - once someone displays these behaviors, should they then be required to give up past weapons legally purchased as well as prevented to future purchases? And, submit to search and ceasure at there homes, vehicles, work?

Somewhere along the way it starts becoming too, too Orvellian, time consuming and costly. These become very tough questions indeed.
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:56 pm
@Setanta,
Interesting experience and viewpoint, thank you.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:56 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

I think he and the person and company who sold him the weapon should face serious charges.

As long as the person selling the gun complied with the law there isn't much to charge them with.

Which raises the question, "Is the law correct?" This has been debated before and will be debated again. What line is correct to prevent incidents like this?
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:57 pm
@BillW,
Who is going to define what "these behaviors" are?
littlek
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:58 pm
@parados,
Do we know yet if the seller complied?
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:58 pm
@H2O MAN,
That is part of the question - true!
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 01:59 pm
@littlek,
The statement that he bought the gun legally implies that was probably the case. I would guess the FBI will be checking all the paperwork to make sure but barring gross negligence or outright fraud on the part of the seller, I doubt he will be charged
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:00 pm
@parados,
That's a tough one to be sure, and the right to bear arms is a right provided in our constitution.

However, there are laws that are probably state mandated, but not all states enforce them.

Some gun-shop owners break the laws and are never convicted.

Solutions for this very touchy subject are difficult.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:00 pm
@parados,
The law is correct, but I'll bet his government school teachers observed quirks in his behavior long ago. Did they report or ignore the issues? Are government school teachers trained to recognize and deal with unusual behaviors?
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Gun shows are even looser......
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:02 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O - Butrflynet just shared his past schizo hints. He didn't pass muster with the Army (guessing he failed the psych eval), and he was thrown out of college due to mental problems. Where the ball was dropped was that these red flags didn't show up when his background was screened for gun purchase.

I do not want mentally unhinged people buying guns. The two don't mix well. There is a law on the books already - and I want it to work efficiently, so that normal people can buy guns, mentally ill people can't, and records accurately delineate the two.
firefly
 
  3  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:05 pm
@H2O MAN,
Loughner also appears to have had a drug problem which also might have influenced his mental state.

Quote:
Jared Loughner unable to enlist in Army because of drug use
By Josh White

Jared Lee Loughner, the suspect in Saturday's mass shooting in Tucson, was rejected from enlistment in the U.S. Army because of issues related to his history of drug use, military officials said Sunday.

In writings on the Internet attributed to Loughner, the suspect wrote that he had at one point been trying to join the Army through the Military Entrance Processing Command in Phoenix. Army officials confirmed Saturday that Loughner was not accepted and was never in the Army, but did not disclose the reason or reasons for his rejection.

Typically, applicants for military service must pass a barrage of exams, including a standard aptitude test, a urinalysis drug screening, a background check for felonies and misdemeanors, and a series of medical tests that can include psychological evaluations. Military officials said failing the drug tests or lying about prior drug use or convictions are among the most common disqualifiers for service.

In Loughner's case, it appears that his drug use was the problem, and he has a prior drug-related conviction. A military official who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to disclose the information said Loughner failed an aspect of the drug inquiry, though it was unclear if it was the urinalysis or other questioning that blocked his entrance. It is unlikely that someone who failed the drug portion of the examinations would have gone on to have more extensive testing, such as a psychological evaluation.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/loughner-unable-to-enlist-in-a.html


There is no evidence that Loughner was ever hospitalized for mental illness or deemed a danger to himself or others. Therefore, there was no reason to deny him his right to buy a gun.

You can't notify "authorities" just because someone is asked to leave a community college or rejected by the military. Either someone is an imminent danger to self and others, and, therefore, requires immediate hospitalization, or you have to wait until they break a criminal law and get locked up. Otherwise, they are free to roam around. People have civil Constitutional rights.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:05 pm
@parados,
Sorry I was unclear. I was answering a question that pre-supposed knowledge of mental instability. Surely, yes. They would only be liable if the info came up on the records search and they disregarded.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:09 pm
@BillW,
BillW wrote:

Gun shows are even looser......


In what way?
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:10 pm
@Butrflynet,
Butrflynet wrote:

http://www.tucsonsentinel.com/local/report/010811_loughner_pima

Pima College statement on alleged Giffords shooter
Posted Jan 8, 2011, 7:30 pm

Dylan Smith TucsonSentinel.com

Pima Community College has released a statement on Jared Lee Loughner, who has been named by sources as a suspect in the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and 18 others on Saturday:

Pima Community College Statement on Today’s Tragic Events

As are all Americans, Pima Community College is deeply saddened by today’s tragic events, and our most heartfelt condolences and thoughts go the families of the victims.

PCC records indicate that Jared Lee Loughner, the suspect in custody in connection to today's terrible mass shooting, is a former PCC student who voluntarily withdrew from the College on Oct. 4, 2010.

Loughner was a PCC student from Summer 2005 through Fall 2010, when he was suspended for Code of Conduct violations. The College's Code of Conduct is available at http://www.pima.edu/studentserv/studentcode/studentcode-2-conduct.shtml.

From February to September 2010, Loughner had five contacts with PCC police for classroom and library disruptions at Northwest and West campuses. On September 29, 2010, College police discovered on YouTube a Loughner-filmed video made at Northwest Campus. In the video, he claims that the College is illegal according to the U.S. Constitution, and makes other claims.

Working with legal counsel, College administration issued a letter of immediate suspension on September 29, 2010. That evening, two police officers delivered the letter of suspension to the student at his and his parents' residence and spoke with the student and his parents.

The suspension letter indicated that he was to contact the Northwest Campus to schedule an appointment to discuss the Code of Conduct process and suspension status. Other than for this appointment, he was prohibited from returning to the College.

Loughner and his parents met Northwest Campus administrators October 4, 2010. During this meeting Loughner indicated he would withdraw from the College. A follow-up letter was sent to him October 7, 2010 indicating that if he intends to return to the College, he must resolve his Code of Conduct violations and obtain a mental health clearance indicating, in the opinion of a mental health professional, his presence at the College does not present a danger to himself or others.

After this event, there was no further College contact with Loughner.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:14 pm
@Lash,
I'm saying the two red flags that recently went up on this guy were ignored for the most part and I'm sure more red flags have popped up in this guy's past only to be brushed aside and ignored. Had someone stepped up and done their job, he may not have been able to purchase a weapon legally - this would not stop him from seeking illegal methods to purchase a weapon though. The black market for sex, drugs and rock-n-roll weapons etc. is open for business.
BillW
 
  2  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:15 pm
@H2O MAN,
Many, many - and you know them - this isn't debatable but a given. The arguement happens with the next statement, which I didn't mention, intentionlly - "Therefore, gun shows should be outlawed." I care not to debate it, you can!
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:15 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

I read an article in which a high school classmate of the shooter reported that he dressed in all black clothes and black boots.
He was a "goth-type."
We need to get rid of the Goths.
We should send them somewhere where they can spend their days moping around, sighing deeply.
We need to send them to someplace that gets a lot of rain and not much sun. Portland, OR, comes to mind. Or someplace in Canada. Perhaps Australia.
(Have I managed to offend everyone?)
in addition to getting rid of Goths, we need to add that anyone attempting to purchase a firearm must pass a Rorschach test and an MMPI (to be scored/evaluated by a clerk from the Dept of Motor Vehicles)
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 9 Jan, 2011 02:17 pm
@BillW,
You have no proof and your claims are incorrect.

You are welcome to provide facts to back up your claims... wait, no you can't!
0 Replies
 
 

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