1
   

How do you win a "War On Terror"?

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 03:29 am
What he said. Very Happy
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 05:17 am
OK
Yes, I agree that the USA cannot totally win the war with Al Q. but certain steps can be taken to decrease the venom. Some of those steps have been stated.

Ironicaly David Frum andRichard Pearle in the new book, "End of Evil, How To Win the War On Terror,said one of the things that the US should do is crack down on Saudi Arabia. Most likely he states much more than that. I will try to get that book from a local library and read it.

The book is here on the Net.

http://www.aei.org/publications/bookID.650/book_detail.asp
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 06:02 am
Re: OK
pistoff wrote:

Ironicaly David Frum andRichard Pearle in the new book, "End of Evil, How To Win the War On Terror,said one of the things that the US should do is crack down on Saudi Arabia. Most likely he states much more than that. I will try to get that book from a local library and read it.


How is that ironic? Just curious.

Anywhoo - "cracking down" on Saudi Arabia is tricky proposition. Exactly how do they propose to do this?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 06:52 am
Perhaps a positive move the US might make towards the end of reducing 'terrorism' would be to actually become the sort of force in the world which it deludely believes it is...

Quote:
For the White House, a complete investigation into those who abetted Saddam's crimes against humanity would prove an embarrassing two-edged sword.

Sometimes democracy works. Though the wheels of accountability often grind slowly, they also can grind fine, if lubricated by the hard work of free-thinking citizens. The latest example: the release of official documents, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, that detail how the U.S. government under Presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush nurtured and supported Saddam Hussein despite his repeated use of chemical weapons.

The work of the National Security Archive, a dogged organization fighting for government transparency, has cast light on the trove of documents that depict in damning detail how the United States, working with U.S. corporations including Bechtel, cynically and secretly allied itself with Saddam's dictatorship. The evidence undermines the unctuous moral superiority with which the current American president, media and public now judge Saddam, a monster the U.S. actively helped create.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/scheer/2004/01/02/hussein/index_np.html
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 01:00 pm
I'm pretty much in agreement with George Soros here:

Quote:
The war on terrorism as pursued by the Bush Administration cannot be won. (emphasis mine) On the contrary, it may bring about a permanent state of war. Terrorists will never disappear. They will continue to provide a pretext for the pursuit of American supremacy.

The terrorist threat must be seen in proper perspective. Terrorism is not new. It was an important factor in nineteenth-century Russia, and it had a great influence on the character of the czarist regime, enhancing the importance of secret police and justifying authoritarianism.


OK, so....here's the deal:

al-Qaeda is not a state power. In fact, taking the Bush adminstration at its word, the most recent code Orange we're still under was triggered by the concern that al-Qaeda would hijack an airliner (or two).

What more proof does one need that these guys don't have any weaponry?

Sure, they are a menace with truck bombs, but BushCo has been treating al-Qaeda as if they had submarines and jet fighters and laser-guided bombs. They don't. The core is about 2,000 guys, mostly in Afghanistan. They were not killed or captured when there was the opportunity (immediately after 9/11), and now, two years later, it will be much harder to get them, mostly because of the Iraq invasion, partly because the global (and especially Islamic) community is unlikely to go along.

Bush wasted an opportunity to soundly defeat al-Qaeda, and instead used 9/11 to advance other agendas (Total Information Awareness, PATRIOT Act, bigger military budget, invading Iraq).
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 03:29 pm
I think we all agree that Bush has fumbled the 'War on Terror' beyond belief. However, I fail to see how Bush could has "wasted an opportunity to soundly defeat al-Qaeda." It seems to me that the defeat of Middle Eastern terrorism, at least in the forseeable future, is an unattainable goal. What exactly do you propose he should have done to "soundly defeat" terrorism?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 03:56 pm
I'd just like to give credit, where credit is due. IronLionZion: Your list of answers to pistoff's question is the best such list of non-violent steps I've seen anywhere. As far as your implied question at the end of point 4;"I can elaborate further if anybody is interested in my opinion on this particular issue." I answer that I would gratefully read as much elaboration as you are willing to write. I am a bit surprised that you don't think Turkey should take steps to remove themselves from Amnesty International's list of bad guys, prior to being accepted by the world community, but that is a minor fault in your philosophy. Unlike you; I believe violence should be met with an overwhelmingly violent response. I believe vivid demonstrations of superior force have to, at least, be considered by enemies, regardless of their ideology.
Your well articulated points make it clear, at least to me, that there are other equally important steps that must be taken. I find you infinitely more credible than those who let their partisan loyalty (or more specifically their disgust of current leadership) obscure there point of view. I thank you for your insight and look forward to reading more of what you have to say.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 03:58 pm
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 05:28 am
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Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 08:10 am
Interesting way of saying: We are our own worst enemy.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:23 pm
Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for the horrors perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.

Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for retaliating in self-defense in an effort to minimize future horrors anticipated to be perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.



What are the major moral, ethical, and practical differences among the following American Actions?

A. Bosnia:
(1) Murder? Thousands of Muslims (e.g., Bosnians) murdered by Serbians;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Muslims threatened to be murdered by Serbians;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Bosnia? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders by Serbians by separating Serbians from Muslims;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support of Murderers? Russians supported Serbians.

B. Afghanistan
(1) Murder? Thousands of Americans (e.g., occupants of World Trade Buildings, Pentagon, three airliners) murdered by al Qaeda;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Americans threatened to be murdered by al Qaeda;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Afghanistan? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders of Americans by minimizing al Qaeda;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support of Murderers? Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Libia, Egypt, North Korea, Iraq etc. supported al Qaeda.

C. Iraq
(1) Murder? Thousands of Muslims (e.g., Shiites, Kurds, Kuwaities) murdered by Saddam Husseiners;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Muslims threatened to be murdered by Saddam Husseiners;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Iraq? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders of people worlwide by minimizing Saddam Husseiners;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support? France, Germany, Russia supported Saddam Husseiners.

D.Israel
(1) Murder? Thousands of Israelies murdered by Arafaters;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Israelies threatened to be murdered by Arafaters;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? No;
(3a) American Financial/weapons support? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of American Financial/Weapons support of Israelies? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? No American troops are on the ground in Israel;
(5a) Purpose of American Financial/Weapons Support of Israelies? Minimize additional murders of Israelies by Arafaters by maximizing Israeli ability to defend itself against Arafaters;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support? Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Syria support Arafaters.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 01:26 pm
Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for the horrors perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.

Blaming the victim or the friends of the victim for retaliating in self-defense in an effort to minimize future horrors anticipated to be perpetrated by the victimizer is at best irrational and at worst evil.



What are the major moral, ethical, and practical differences among the following American Actions?

A. Bosnia:
(1) Murder? Thousands of Muslims (e.g., Bosnians) murdered by Serbians;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Muslims threatened to be murdered by Serbians;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Bosnia? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders by Serbians by separating Serbians from Muslims;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support of Murderers? Russians supported Serbians.

B. Afghanistan
(1) Murder? Thousands of Americans (e.g., occupants of World Trade Buildings, Pentagon, three airliners) murdered by al Qaeda;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Americans threatened to be murdered by al Qaeda;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Afghanistan? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders of Americans by minimizing al Qaeda;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support of Murderers? Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Libia, Egypt, North Korea, Iraq etc. supported al Qaeda.

C. Iraq
(1) Murder? Thousands of Muslims (e.g., Shiites, Kurds, Kuwaities) murdered by Saddam Husseiners;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Muslims threatened to be murdered by Saddam Husseiners;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of Americans in Iraq? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? Minimize additional murders of people worlwide by minimizing Saddam Husseiners;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support? France, Germany, Russia supported Saddam Husseiners.

D.Israel
(1) Murder? Thousands of Israelies murdered by Arafaters;
(2) Threatened Murder? Thousands more Israelies threatened to be murdered by Arafaters;
(3) American Troops on the Ground? No;
(3a) American Financial/weapons support? Yes;
(4) UN Approval of American Financial/Weapons support of Israelies? No;
(5) Purpose of American Troops on the Ground? No American troops are on the ground in Israel;
(5a) Purpose of American Financial/Weapons Support of Israelies? Minimize additional murders of Israelies by Arafaters by maximizing Israeli ability to defend itself against Arafaters;
(6) Financial/Weapons Support? Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Syria support Arafaters.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 05:45 pm
Just one of many places, where Muslim fundamentalism (and thus its most extreme appearance, terrorism) might get an upswell soon, if the cycle of dictatorship and corruption pushing the populace to frustration and exasperation isn't broken: Azerbajjan.

Quote:
[..] Ilham [Aliev] already owes his father's advisers for getting him his job: It was they who oversaw the stacking of electoral committees with pro-government supporters, barred more than half the opposition candidates from registering for the presidential election, and excluded known opposition sympathisers from voter lists--all of which produced a result favoring the younger Aliev. Not surprisingly, Ilham has not fired any of his father's former cronies.

Nor does he seem in a hurry to stake out his own path. [..] Aliev shows no signs of battling the corruption that plagued the country during his father's tenure. Azerbaijan recently placed 95 out of 102 countries in Transparency International's annual corruption index. The problem is that once money leaves a government oil fund and enters the state budget, it falls into a black hole. [..]

Most dangerous, Aliev shows little interest in liberalizing the country's political system. When some 15,000 people turned out in Baku to protest Aliev's rigged election, they got not Georgia's "Rose Revolution" but an iron fist: Five thousand of them clashed with police, and the arrest of opposition supporters continued for weeks afterwards. Meanwhile, the main opposition party, Musavat, has been evicted from its offices, and dozens of government civil servants reportedly have been fired for opposing Aliev's election.

Unless Aliev begins to push for liberalization, a populace fed up with fake democracy could retreat into radicalism. "A feeling of alienation and abandonment is widespread now," says Anar Ahmadov, director of the Caucasus studies program at Khazar. That could simply encourage nationalism, of the kind that propelled the country toward war with Armenia. But it could also provoke religious fundamentalism. Though Azerbaijan remains a relatively moderate country, religious tension may be building--in the village of Nardaran, a school principal's refusal to let girls wear headscarves last year sparked a wave of protests. What's more, Iranian television has become popular in Baku, and locals have begun comparing Azerbaijan to Uzbekistan, where political repression contributed to the growth of a religious party, Hizb ut-Tahrir. Unless Aliev does something radical soon, Azerbaijan could be heading in that direction as well.


TNR: Eclipse of the Son
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 06:09 pm
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jan, 2004 06:15 pm
As for the original question - how to win the war on terror, or more in generally, how to take the wind out of the sails of the extremists; my answers would focus on democratisation, transparency, socio-economic opportunities, fair deals. I mean, of course you need to deploy whatever means necessary to take out the terrorist leaders who are targeting your folk. That's one. But if you leave it at that, you're "mopping with the tap turned open", as we say. So: democratisation, transparency, socio-economic opportunities, fair deals. Stop propping up corrupt, ruthless dictatorships that foster a popular resentment and exasperation that will sooner or later translate into more footsoldiers for the fundamentalist leaders. Dont believe Karimov and his like if they're saying their totalitarianism serves to protect against fundamentalism and extremism - it is fostering them. Idealistic though it might sound - promoting fair and open societies is the only feasible long-term answer against any political or religious extremism.

But I already pretty made my case in the Guantanamo thread, discussing with ILZ on democratisation in the ME and in the "Terrorism, Crime: how does poverty factor in?" thread on the Roundtable. See the quotes below - one from each thread.

Oh, and sorry for just barging in on this thread, not reading the discussion so far but simply only responding to the original question - will read up and perhaps react some later time!

in the Guantanamo thread I wrote:
I am not underestimating the danger of political Islamist extremism. But its growing influence is the product of the utter popular frustration with the current closed, authoritarian systems in the first place - systems in which citizens have little say and which frustrate their every ambition. And it will continue to grow the longer the Arab countries wait with reforms. If the switch to democracy had been made twenty years ago, fundamentalism would never have become what it is now. As it is now, the risk has increased but trying to smother it any longer under the repressive lid of authoritarian "stability" will really make it explode. The longer they wait with democratic elections, the greater the chance that fundamentalists will win them. Yes, that's a gloomy outlook.

Oddly enough, the popularity of fundamentalism is an expression of democratic frustration. If a move is made now, the longing for democracy may still outweigh the penchant for the fundamentalists' anti-Westernism ... and the fifty-fifty balance between them [..] will still persuade some Islamists to accept a hybrid of the two sets of values for their government (as they did in Turkey). The longer we wait ... [..]

Karimov's Uzbek dictatorship [for example] is positively one of the most totalitarian and criminal of present-day Eurasia. Check any human rights report. He's far worse than most of your "glorified dictatorships" - he's the real thing. And for over ten years now he's managed to get away with it, abroad, by referring to some abstract Islamist danger. Well, back in 1990 the Muslim movement there was moderate, and had allied itself with pro-Western democrats. Then Karimov cracked down. Ever since, people have been imprisoned and tortured at random while Karimov's cronies rob the land. In the meantime, any oppositional pamphlet or muffled protest has been hit on as more evidence of the supposed "Islamist danger", though there is little sign of a wide-spread movement of anything like the extremism found further south. It's propping up people like Karimov that has gotten us in this ****, with people turning to fundamentalism as their last resort in anger and frustration, in the first place. [..]

[Democracy is] not the solution to all the world's problems ... but democracy is a system that promotes transparency in governance and thus in economy, corruption is on average lower in democracies, in democracies the leaders are slightly less likely to spend all their budget on arms and nepotism and thus slightly more likely to spend it on education and health care, which benefits the economy again, leading to ... well, et cetera - not mentioning freedom of media, human rights and all that.

[You write:] "In other places, like most nations in the Middle East, democracy would result in leadership that is more fundamentalist and anti-Western than the dictators they are replacing" - could well be - but propping up these dictators for longer still will definitely further boost fundamentalist and anti-Western trends - and imagine what will ensue once they are, after all, swept away ...


[quote="in the "terrorism, crime, poverty" thread I"]Most all of us here have said it - terrorist and extremist leaders and ideologues are often men of means. But they need footsoldiers to fight for them, blow themselves up for them. The Casablanca bombing may have been directed by Osama's Al-Qaeda - but the men who carried the bombs were from the local slums. The footsoldiers are often people who do live in a poverty that, as Sofia put it so nicely. "leeches hope and possibility for future happiness out of their lives".

Or, as Howard Dean put it yesterday,

"Today, billions of people live on the knife's edge of survival, trapped in a struggle against ignorance, poverty, and disease. Their misery is a breeding ground for the hatred peddled by bin Laden and other merchants of death."

You need a strategy to hit out at those "merchants of death", often quite wealthy people - and you need a strategy to drain the reservoir of people desperate enough to see joining their "troops" as the only way to achieve a better life, if not here than in the afterlife. That means fighting poverty - or more precisely, fighting desperation.

Desperation is a powerful force that doesn't hinge just on poverty without prospects - that just breeds resignation - but on the combination of poverty and fear, as Roger pointed out. On the [..] sense that even that which they have is acutely threatened, or the frustration at opportunities they have come to see - but are barred from reaching.

At the moment, in the ME, its just the extremists who are capitalising on this desperation. You need a strategy to tackle the situation where the extremists are the only ones offering schools and social help to those who would otherwise be without - and who thus accept in gratitude what are basically instruments of indoctrination. There are so many people there who've come to want serious schools, like they've come to want serious politics, but who are faced with indifferent, corrupt, (semi-)dictatorial state bureaucracies - and only the fundamentalists have the network in place to jump in the gap and cater to their needs and desires.

To counter the fundamentalists, you need to offer more than a fight - you need to offer an alternative.

In a way the neo-cons are therefore to be praised for steering at something far beyond the mere pacification/stablisation of establishing a "friendly regime" in Iraq - to aspire to remake the country, so to say. Its just that the target they chose was highly odd: in a region awash with fundamentalist agitation, Saddam's Iraq was not among the places where the terrorists came from. [..]

Basically, it should have been (and still is) a question of putting one's money where one's mouth is.

One - fighting terrorism means hitting at the terrorists - focus on Al-Qaeda, dont let yourself be diverted into other tempting ME causes. "Osama" should have remained the prime target from day one.

Two - draining the extremists' reservoirs of support (and keep them from filling back up) means providing an alternative to what the fundamentalists are offering. If you cant, obviously, go in there yourself (because you'd be seen as imposing your imperialist will) - and the governments of the region can't be trusted, find other ways. Be like Soros in Eastern Europe: find the local actors that do aim to offer a modernist alternative - and swamp the region with support and funding for good schools, independent media, community initiatives. Bypass the corrupt governments and boost a civil society that simultaneously provides an alternative to the fundamentalist networks and pressures those governments to reform. And I mean a lot of money - almost as much as fully-fledged war costs. See it as a bottom-up Marshall Plan. It worked wonders in Central Europe.

Idealistic? Perhaps. But as long as I don't see the Bush administration make even the smallest move in this direction - being stingy about it if not outright hostile to the very notion - and pour all its money instead into military action (aimed, to wit, at a place that wasn't involved in jihadist terrorism in the first place), I see us losing the war on terrorism.[/quote]
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Jan, 2004 06:22 pm
Murky, complicated, worrisome ...

Quote:
Egypt muzzles calls for democracy

By Glenn Frankel
washingtonpost.com

[..] In what was widely regarded as one of his most important speeches of 2003, President Bush proclaimed in November that it was time for the United States to support democracy in the Middle East. He said the establishment of a free Iraq would be "a watershed event in the global democratic revolution." And he called upon Egypt, the Arab world's most populous country and the second-biggest recipient of U.S. military and economic aid, to be in the vanguard.

[..] U.S. officials insist they are seeing slow but positive changes in human rights conditions here. But rights advocates, opposition politicians and analysts interviewed here paint a darker portrait: of an authoritarian government that tightens or loosens the screws of repression depending upon how it perceives threats, that is obsessed with its Islamic opposition and feels harassed by human rights activists, and that wields a powerful state security apparatus that operates under far-reaching emergency laws and often deals brutally with opponents.

And they contend that, contrary to Bush's pronouncements, U.S. aid -- nearly $2 billion per year over the past two decades -- has propped up an unpopular government, its army and police, and helped suppress democracy. [..]
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Jan, 2004 04:59 pm
nimh wrote:
As for the original question - how to win the war on terror, or more in generally, how to take the wind out of the sails of the extremists; my answers would focus on democratisation, transparency, socio-economic opportunities, fair deals. I mean, of course you need to deploy whatever means necessary to take out the terrorist leaders who are targeting your folk. That's one. But if you leave it at that, you're "mopping with the tap turned open", as we say. So: democratisation, transparency, socio-economic opportunities, fair deals. Stop propping up corrupt, ruthless dictatorships that foster a popular resentment and exasperation that will sooner or later translate into more footsoldiers for the fundamentalist leaders.

...

In a way the neo-cons are therefore to be praised for steering at something far beyond the mere pacification/stablisation of establishing a "friendly regime" in Iraq - to aspire to remake the country, so to say. Its just that the target they chose was highly odd: in a region awash with fundamentalist agitation, Saddam's Iraq was not among the places where the terrorists came from. [..]


It appears to me that Iraq is in deed the best place in the middle east to begin the rectifications you rightly propose. Iraq possessed a regime most murderous of its own population and at the same time most easily overthrown by the US. Pacification will continue to be difficult until the US makes it clear that the US and not the Baathists and Al-Qaeda terrorists offer the people of Iraq a real alternative to servitude, hunger and death. I say focus on rectification of Iraq because the Iraqi people are best acquainted with the probable consequences of returning to state tyranny and murder, and are most likely to be wary and alert to any attempts to return them to that state.

nimh wrote:
One - fighting terrorism means hitting at the terrorists - focus on Al-Qaeda, dont let yourself be diverted into other tempting ME causes. "Osama" should have remained the prime target from day one.


Osama could be captured and/or killed tomorrow and new and perhaps worse Osamas would replace him immediately (perhaps this has already hapened). The key to ending Osama terrorism is destruction of their financial/weapons support. End US aid to all those states that are providing this support or possess inhabitants providing this support.

nimh wrote:
Two - ... swamp the region with support and funding for good schools, independent media, community initiatives. Bypass the corrupt governments and boost a civil society that simultaneously provides an alternative to the fundamentalist networks and pressures those governments to reform.


The recipients of such aid must first feel that their survival is secured before they will risk investing their time, energy and other resources in improving their own lives. The terrified reaction of UN people to the terrorist bombing of their facility in Bagdag is both natural and very instructive. The terrorist threat has got to be at least reduced to the point where the people perceive that constructive efforts can proceed long enough to achieve success. For that reason, the US must first succeed in Iraq before it will be perceived as a credible force for good and can succeed elsewere. It is an excellent way for the US to make up for past failures, terrible judgments, and horrific consequences. Bush may not be the best man for the job, but right now he is least worse. Hopefully, if we do replace him in November, his repacement is no less capable.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 02:08 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Osama could be captured and/or killed tomorrow and new and perhaps worse Osamas would replace him immediately (perhaps this has already hapened).


Now that's one thing I'll sadly agree with you on ...

where we differ is that I think that the war in Iraq - a place where al-Qaeda had no popular foothold, whatsoever - may well already have provoked this.

ican711nm wrote:
The recipients of such aid must first feel that their survival is secured before they will risk investing their time, energy and other resources in improving their own lives. The terrified reaction of UN people to the terrorist bombing of their facility in Bagdag is both natural and very instructive. The terrorist threat has got to be at least reduced to the point where the people perceive that constructive efforts can proceed long enough to achieve success. For that reason, the US must first succeed in Iraq before it will be perceived as a credible force for good and can succeed elsewere.


Why the black & white, either/or thinking? If current socio-cultural-economic conditions potentially have new Osamas springing up all the time, isn't it both necessary, right now, to track down the current bunch of terrorist leaders and clamp down on them and infuse the area with the kind of investments that would help prevent their replacement with ever new successors?

Of course one can't do much social work in a state of full war, it's true (though, as the experience of British peacekeepers versus that of US peacekeepers shows, some training in preventing local conflicts as well as winning them once they break out, comes in handy). But much of the region is not in a state of full war - Iraq's just one puzzlepiece. Whats to stop the States from investing in a "Marshall Plan" for independent media, educational opportunities, civil society groups, etc, in countries around the region, while fighting the war in Iraq?

I'd say we have to. Osama is not from Iraq; most of the 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi-Arabia. Al-Qaeda attacks this past year have hit at countries as far-flung as Morocco in the West to Indonesia in the East. To stop this cancer from growing, it needs to be stopped where it appears - both by repression of the actual terrorist leaders and the fostering of alternative vistas for those who now are tempted by what the fundamentalists are conjuring up.

A model state on the Euphrates, even if it does materialise after, I'm sure, years of struggle and complications (compare Bosnia), won't in itself stem the popular frustration in Egypt, Yemen or Pakistan that has people there now turning to extremist movements. It may offer some help, in terms of showing what a feasible alternative would look like, but to y'r average shopkeeper or unemployed youth in Luxor or Casablanca, Iraq is far away, and the Muslim Brotherhood is close by. And since you canĀ“t invade the entire region - and military clampdowns have in any case a nasty habit of backfiring as often as not, in terms of popular support - there must at least be a flanking strategy to that focused on Iraq - one looking a little bit beyond the immediate military victory over this year's Osama.

It should be possible. Wars are damn expensive, as any comparison between the costs of one B-2 bomber (2,2 billion $) and the annual global budget of the UNHCR (1,1 billion $) would show. For that money - good for providing food, shelter and health care to many tens of thousands of refugees around the world - one could buy just over 5 F-22's. If a government is willing to spend extreme sums on a military victory, when it's aimed purely at the rather abstract goal of creating some model state that future generations around the region might one day want to emulate, surely it should want to consider a similar investment in the very populations that are, right now, most preyed on by the fundamentalists?

There's no reason to say that, because we're fighting a war in Iraq right now, we can't really do anything much about investing in the prospects of an open society anywhere else - in fact, it would be really stupid, cause if you don't fund, foster and support the alternatives to fundamentalism and totalitarianism now in, say, Egypt or Jordan, you might one day have your model state on the Euphrates - surrounded by newly fundamentalist countries.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 02:11 pm
Meanwhile, Robert Lane Greene of the Economist.com makes the impopular argument for multilateralism as a way to help win the war on terror ... quite convincingly, I think.

Quote:
In the summer of 2002, some nine months after September 11, majorities in Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, Brazil, Nigeria, South Korea, and Indonesia, to name a few countries, all held "favorable" views of America, according to a Pew Center survey. A year later support for America had fallen in nearly every single country for which the Pew Center provides data. The least bad news came from our firmest allies: favorable views of America fell from 75 percent to 70 percent in Britain, 72 percent to 63 percent in Canada, and 70 percent to 60 percent in Italy. Among our more skeptical allies, support tipped sharply negative: 63 percent to 43 percent in France, 61 percent to 36 percent in Russia, 53 percent to 46 percent in South Korea, 52 percent to 34 percent in Brazil. Favorable views positively vaporized in the Muslim world: from 61 percent to 15 percent in Indonesia, 30 percent to 15 percent in Turkey, and 25 percent to 1 percent in Jordan.

Defenders of the Bush administration point out that it isn't the president's job to please the French or Brazilians, but first and foremost to protect the United States. This is true as far as it goes, but it ignores one crucial insight: We are safer when fewer people hate us. Most obviously, there's the fact that fewer young Muslim men volunteer for suicide missions for the glory of killing a few Americans. But there's far more to it than that. Had we made fewer Turks hate us, the 4th Infantry division could have helped end the Iraq war even quicker and with less loss of life (American and Iraqi), rather than float uselessly in the Mediterranean. When Germany and France hate us less, their police kick down doors of suspected terrorists in Marseilles and Hamburg more enthusiastically. When Asians and other Europeans hate us less, they are more likely to donate to Iraq's reconstruction. And on and on.

True, the war in Iraq was going to anger those who oppose any American-led war under any circumstances. But the way the Bush administration prosecuted it angered many more still. Though the administration managed to infuriate the world repeatedly in its first several months in office, it got a blank slate after September 11--then proceeded, like a bankrupt man forgiven his debts, to go on yet another spree. Bush made clear he would topple Saddam Hussein under any circumstances, then chose belatedly to go to the United Nations and inflate the WMD threat. He tried to bludgeon rather than convince allies to join us. By the eve of war in March, America's poll ratings were even lower than the summer numbers cited above. George W. Bush had lost a p.r. battle to a murderous dictator.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Jan, 2004 06:01 pm
nimh wrote:
Why the black & white, either/or thinking? If current socio-cultural-economic conditions potentially have new Osamas springing up all the time, isn't it both necessary, right now, to track down the current bunch of terrorist leaders and clamp down on them and infuse the area with the kind of investments that would help prevent their replacement with ever new successors?


Tracking down the current bunch of Al Qaeda terrorists is probably a long term process. That current bunch is steadily growing with new recruits in several countries as we discuss this. They are now terrifying populaces in those same countries. Yes, effective investment in Iraq will make terrorist recruiting less effective there, but it won't prevent it. Also, as you subsequently pointed out, many of these recruits have come from outside Iraq and outside of Afghanistan.


nimh wrote:
Whats to stop the States from investing in a "Marshall Plan" for independent media, educational opportunities, civil society groups, etc, in countries around the region, while fighting the war in Iraq?


Only the will to do it can stop us and them! Both the US populace and the middle east populace must possess the will to do it. For understandable reasons, much of the populace of the countries around the region trust neither US or themselves.


nimh wrote:
A model state on the Euphrates, even if it does materialise after, I'm sure, years of struggle ... may offer some help, in terms of showing what a feasible alternative would look like ... there must at least be a flanking strategy to that focused on Iraq - one looking a little bit beyond the immediate military victory over this year's Osama.


I agree!

nimh wrote:
surely ... a similar investment in the very populations that are, right now, most preyed on by the fundamentalists?


I agree!

nimh wrote:
There's no reason to say that, because we're fighting a war in Iraq right now, we can't really do anything much about investing in the prospects of an open society anywhere else - in fact, it would be really stupid, cause if you don't fund, foster and support the alternatives to fundamentalism and totalitarianism now in, say, Egypt or Jordan, you might one day have your model state on the Euphrates - surrounded by newly fundamentalist countries.


I agree! It is currently almost like that right now. Current tyrant-ruled states in the region have been and are currently financing terrorism worldwide. They don't have to be fundamentalists themselves to aid and abet the destruction of any model state anywhere that threatens their own power.

We must figure out a way to neutralize these tyrants in order to rescue the people they rule. At least we must decrease their skimming off our aid. These tyrants are very good at skimming off our aid intended to help the people they rule and investing it outside their own countries to help themselves.
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