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How do you win a "War On Terror"?

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 04:54 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:


You are making stuff up here. :-)

I'll go ask if they agree with you.

You go do that.

Quote:
I understand you are quite young, and for one so young you display extrodinary insight most of the time, but on other times you descend to the level of belligerent street punk. I personally thnk this was one of those times. Now, have we wasted enough bandwidth away from the actual topic, or will you continue?
I'm going to again ask you to cease with the insults.

You say I've acted like a "punk" but you are the only one flinging the insults in this exchange Hobitbob. I have not been belligerent with you at all. This despite your repeated insults.
I am discussing the topic. You are the only one interested in the insults here.

I'm interested in discussion, not pseudo-sophistry! Give it a rest.
If you are truly interested in discussion, what is your opinion on the current emphasis on Middle Eastern terror networks to the exclusion of activities in Central and South America, Europe, Asia, etc...? Why was the KKK member recently arrested for possessing explosives not charged under terror statutes, while the operator of a strip club in Vegas was? What does this say about the purpose of the "war on terror" as anything other than semantics?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:00 pm
hobitbob wrote:

I'm interested in discussion, not pseudo-sophistry! Give it a rest.


As long as it's not insults it's an improvement.

Quote:
If you are truly interested in discussion, what is your opinion on the current emphasis on Middle Eastern terror networks to the exclusion of activities in Central and South America, Europe, Asia, etc...?


You talking about the US focus? If so they have focused on Central and South America.

But they were looking for Al Quaeda there so it might just be part of your point.

If you are asking why the focus on Arab terrorists I think it's because they have shown more willingness and ability to target Americans.

The US isn't really interested in ending all terrorism. Seemingly just that which is directed at us.


Quote:
Why was the KKK member recently arrested for possessing explosives not charged under terror statutes, while the operator of a strip club in Vegas was? What does this say about the purpose of the "war on terror" as anything other than semantics?


"Terrorism" is a semantical distinction. The "war on terror" is semantics.

Sure it may be coupled with action that's supposed to be part of the "war". But the term is just a "we're serious" semantical bit of nonsense.

They would be more linguistically correct to say they simply intend to "crack down".
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:12 pm
Correct. But it is especially interesting considering our closest "ally" in the hint for bin-Laden is Pakistan. Rolling Eyes
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:15 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:

You talking about the US focus? If so they have focused on Central and South America.

I haven't seen much evidence of this, I would appreciate references.

Quote:
If you are asking why the focus on Arab terrorists I think it's because they have shown more willingness and ability to target Americans.

I am not sure on that point either. I am less fearful of a weekend in Cairo than I am of a weekend in Peru.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:21 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Craven de Kere wrote:

You talking about the US focus? If so they have focused on Central and South America.

I haven't seen much evidence of this, I would appreciate references.


It didn't get much play (for good reason).

CNN - South America's 'tri-border' back on terrorism radar

General Google query for "brazil border terrorism"

In addition there were other concerns about the 'tri-border' being a "haven".

To some degree the CD smuggling for finances sounds reasonable, but this was not explored much in the media (it was enough to interest me, as I'd crossed that border).

Quote:

Quote:
If you are asking why the focus on Arab terrorists I think it's because they have shown more willingness and ability to target Americans.

I am not sure on that point either. I am less fearful of a weekend in Cairo than I am of a weekend in Peru.


In neither location would I be concerned with terrorism. I'd worry a lot more about theives who aren't concerned with ideology. That and STDs.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:21 pm
Bin-Laden (or his coterie of staff's)'s actual statement:Observer.co.uk
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:22 pm
Quote:
In neither location would I be concerned with terrorism. I'd worry a lot more about theives who aren't concerned with ideology. That and STDs.

Laughing
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:23 pm
hobitbob wrote:
But it is especially interesting considering our closest "ally" in the hint for bin-Laden is Pakistan. Rolling Eyes


Pakistan is not the ally. Musharraf is. ;-)
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:26 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
hobitbob wrote:
But it is especially interesting considering our closest "ally" in the hint for bin-Laden is Pakistan. Rolling Eyes


Pakistan is not the ally. Musharraf is. ;-)

And allying with an individual Pakistani politician is just plain stupid! I was there when Haque staged his coup against Zulfikar Ali Bhuto. Pakistani leader has as much job security as computer programmer! Especially foolhardy for the US since the head of ISI is in open conflict with the president. and may be more powerful. This has also alienated India, whom the last administration went to great pains to build good relations with.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:26 pm
That statement you linked was a very important one. And it got lots less attention than it deserved.

I just re-read it and got the same impression. That there is a great desire for retribution but not a whole lot of coherent thought into what it will accomplish.

Frankly I think that while there have been other goals the main goal has been simply to "get" us.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:27 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
That statement you linked was a very important one. And it got lots less attention than it deserved.

I just re-read it and got the same impression. That there is a great desire for retribution but not a whole lot of coherent thought into what it will accomplish.

Frankly I think that while there have been other goals the main goal has been simply to "get" us.

Yup, and by doing so, to gain status in the eyes of the eastern world for stinging the giant.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:31 pm
Dunno, I think the alliance with Musharraf was one bourne of necessity. We need Pakistan's cooperation and needed it even more for the Afghanistan invasion.

It's a shaky bond but heck, they are at least a bit less extreme now and we didn't really concede any of the economic concessions that Pakistan was led to believe we would.

In short it really hasn't cost us yet. The turmoil with India pre-dated our relationship. I also think India was taking advantage of our rhetoric.

I'd love to see something more stable than depending on Musharraf but ahve not seen a more attractive alternative.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:32 pm
Yeah, they really do seem to showboat just as much as anything else. There does seem to be a bit of vanity in the "I'm a heeeero" position some of the terrorists court.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:34 pm
An intellectual exercise.
The topic is huge so I was trying to bring to a somewhat smaller scale. Now that the dust has settled would it be possible to get to one specific case at a time?

When I can get to it I will copy off various solutions that have been posted in order to organize them. I am attempting to focus on non-violent means of lessening terrorist attacks directly &/or indirectly upon the USA.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Dec, 2003 05:37 pm
My GF's mother is faculty at DU's International Studies program, specializing in terrorism, so I have a rather priviledged "inside track" to some aspects of what's the latest research (hello Mr. Ashcroft), and I have to say the veering off minto Iraq may have set things back tremendously. Ah, well. Off to Karate. testing colouredbelts tonight. What fun! Rolling Eyes
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 09:14 am
Now with Gadhafi of Libya cooperating with Britain and the United States in the destruction of his chemical weapons, uranium enrichment program, and long range missiles (from North Korea), critics of the Bush Administration's firm approach to the problem of state supported terrorism have much more to explain.

The Taliban have been destroyed; Afghanistan, though still quite turbulent, is no longer the private training preserve of terrorist groups ; Saddam's regime in Iraq has been destroyed, profoundly changing the political map of the Gulf region ; Pakistan, faced with the possibility of U.S. support for India, has undertaken to attempt to tame its fanatical islamist community, and to at least superficially cooperate with the U.S. ; The theocrats in Iran are now forced to deal with their own youth who increasingly want western-style freedoms ; and Kim Jong Il has been reduced to doing precisely what he vowed never to do, negotiate the consequences of his bad behavior with his neighbors, instead of flinging rhetorical threats and posturing at the United States ; South Korea is contemplating its security needs in a more adult way after being told that the U.S. no longer really needs to protect them ; and China has been asked to contemplate a rearmed Japan or deal with North Korea in a serious way. Not a bad start.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 01:37 pm
"Critics of the Bush Administration's firm approach to the problem of state supported terrorism have much more to explain"

Only if they allow pro-Bush arguments to ascribe anything positive to his policy.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 01:46 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
"Critics of the Bush Administration's firm approach to the problem of state supported terrorism have much more to explain"

Only if they allow pro-Bush arguments to ascribe anything positive to his policy.


Touché.

The Dem candidates are all yelling but can't be heard above the din of self-congratulatory media backslapping and Republican gloating.

That will fade.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 02:28 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
The Taliban have been destroyed; Afghanistan, though still quite turbulent, is no longer the private training preserve of terrorist groups


According to DoD reports going back to March, Al-Qaeda and Taliban forces are reforming in Afghanistan:

Quote:
"The Khost area is a tense situation. It remains a dangerous place," Air Force Brig. Gen. John W. Rosa told reporters at the Pentagon today. U.S. forces continue surveillance and intelligence gathering in that area, he said.

The Joint Staff spokesman gave no details about the intelligence U.S. officials have. "We continue to observe, but to start to characterize at this point in time what we're seeing, I think, is a bit premature," he said.

Pentagon spokeswoman Torie Clarke said U.S. officials expect and anticipate encounters with more pockets of resistance. Al Qaeda and Taliban forces have been in a regrouping mode, she said, "so we fully expect it and it's one of the reasons we're still there."


and April:

Quote:
Vikram Parek, a Kabul-based member of the International Crisis Group, says life outside the Afghan capital has become risky. In this interview with RN's Nikki Brown, he explains that the supposedly vanquished Taliban is responsible for much of the violence:

"I think the most important thing to remember is that the Taliban never really disappeared politically in Afghanistan. Quite a large number were absorbed into post-Taliban administrations, particularly in the south, towards Kabul, but even in the north, so there's an acceleration of efforts towards military ends."


and September, according to Army News Service:

Quote:
"The Taliban is reforming and getting stronger with al Qaeda help," he said. "The warlords who were on our side versus the Taliban are defecting. Believe it or not, they love [President George W.] Bush here. But, they want to know he still cares about them."


The rest of your post, likewise, is projection, speculation, and opinion wrapped in an authoritative tone.
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Adrian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Dec, 2003 09:31 pm
At the end of WWII Britain faced a huge problem. They had an empire that they couldn't protect. "Terrorist" groups sprang up in Africa and Asia and things started to get ugly. Do you know what they did? They gave the countries involved their independence! It worked too!! Most of those nations are now democratic, fairly peaceful, prosperous and, most importantly, ALLIES of the British.

When people gather in groups to fight against something there is usually a good reason. If you don't talk to them and find out what it is, or if you do, but discount what they have to say, you won't get very far. When you go out and declare "war" on these people you are taking a BIG backwards step.
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