9
   

Alternatives to jail/prison

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:21 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
You know what - you didn't. You didn't deserve for me to be so sarcastic to you and I sincerely apologize for that.

Not a problem.

aidan wrote:
I think what started to really bother me and struck me as disrespectful -although reading through it again, I can see it's probably not meant to be, it's just your opinion- is the constant reiteration that no rehabilitation takes place in prisons.

I never said that no rehabilitation takes place behind prison walls. I said that prisons don't do a very good job at rehabilitating inmates. The question is whether we want to make prisons better at rehabilitating prisoners, or whether some alternative to prison would be preferable.

In the US, at least, alternatives to prison are widely available. Regular attendance at a substance abuse rehab program, for instance, is a common condition for parolees. The problem, though, is that many convicts who could benefit from rehab programs are also the kinds of criminals that the public wants behind bars. That means that, whatever rehabilitation they get, they'll get it in prison. And prisons are designed primarily to warehouse inmates, not to provide rehabilitation services. You may be frustrated that prisons don't do a better job of rehabilitating inmates, but the wonder, as Dr. Johnson said about women preachers, is not that it is done poorly, but that it is done at all.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:08 pm
@joefromchicago,
I'm about 1/4 way into James Boswell's book on Sam Johnson. It's tough going.

I think the system we've got is as good as we're prepared to pay for. One would expect someone working in Rebecca's role to talk up rehabilitation. It serves the interests of the hierarchy associated with that aspect of prison life to have its usefulness to society talked up. Levering taxpayer's money out of the Exchequer is the obvious aim although I will understand if Rebecca vehemently denies such a motive. And the taxpayer has a similar motive and his considered and long cliched view, in the pubs at least, is that it's a holiday camp.

So I'm doing Rebecca a favour. I'm telling her what her local MP knows. It's his job to help talk the Chancellor into coughing up. And when Rebecca, after honing her skills on here, tackles her MP, it's as well she knows what she's up against. And what her MP will be up against in Parliament, where it matters, if he joins her crusade to render every last one of us perfectly well-adjusted and respected citizens.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:15 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
U appear to have lost your mind
with references to "electrified nails" for "crucifixtions".
U r kinda approaching freaking me out.
spendius wrote:
Dear me.
I refuse; u r insufficiently endearing; besides, I don 't go that way.





spendius wrote:
What a big soft pussy you actually are.
"Sticks n stones n gunfire, may break my bones, but names will never hurt me."




spendius wrote:
You want capital punishment and torture to deter criminals
and remove them and you want also to be all squishy and sentimental about it.
I see no need for sentiment.
I 've never given my attention to "electrified nails" (nor had I ever heard of them).



spendius wrote:
The rest of your post is gibberish.
Truth be told, for years now, I 've found your posts,
very ofen, to be very, very unclear.
Truly; I am not just saying that to argue tit-for-tat.
For several years, when reading a sizeable portion
of your posts, I 've wondered: "what the hell is he talking about ??"

Sometimes I ask; not always.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:58 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
, I 've wondered: "what the hell is he talking about ??"


Did you wonder that about the last post of mine on here?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 03:16 pm
@spendius,
David wrote:
, I 've wondered: "what the hell is he talking about ??"
spendius wrote:
Did you wonder that about the last post of mine on here?
No; that one seemed lucid, except insofar as it appears to imply
that English prisons close down after holidays; amnesty ??

In America, we keep them open all year around.

" pris·on   /ˈprɪzən/ Show Spelled
[priz-uhn] Show IPA

–noun
1. a building for the confinement of persons held while awaiting trial, persons sentenced after conviction, etc.
2. state prison.
3. any place of confinement or involuntary restraint. "
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 03:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
that one seemed lucid


I bet it doesn't seem as lucid as it does to me.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 04:56 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
that one seemed lucid
spendius wrote:
I bet it doesn't seem as lucid as it does to me.
I think u win the bet.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2010 04:37 am
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:

[..]In the US, at least, alternatives to prison are widely available. Regular attendance at a substance abuse rehab program, for instance, is a common condition for parolees. [..]
Prison alternatives in the US came up in a completely different context on another thread; I'd be very interested in your and David's opinions:
Link: http://able2know.org/topic/161239-1#post-4355172 Excerpt:
Quote:
I have a friend who was involved in a single-car accident (he was driving very fast, drunk, crashed into a highway abutment but wasn't hurt) and was given by the judge the option of undergoing counseling in lieu of a few days in prison; my friend told the judge he'd rather go to prison. The judge - obviously a decent sort - tried to explain the disadvantages of having a prison sentence on one's record, but my friend was adamant. Finally the judge let him go with a warning.

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2010 11:40 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
So I'm doing Rebecca a favour. I'm telling her what her local MP knows. It's his job to help talk the Chancellor into coughing up. And when Rebecca, after honing her skills on here, tackles her MP, it's as well she knows what she's up against. And what her MP will be up against in Parliament, where it matters, if he joins her crusade to render every last one of us perfectly well-adjusted and respected citizens.


I appreciate the thought (that you'd even want to do me a favo(u)r), but as you know I'm in the peculiar position of not having anyone here I can call 'my' MP; I'm not a citizen- just a resident- so I can't vote and so have no say in how public policy should be changed or directed or how public funds should be allocated- and that's fair enough. So I won't be writing any MP's.

I was thinking though that I'd join and support the Prison Reform Trust because one of the 'solutions' that occurred to me during the course of participating in and reading the responses to this thread, is to make the public more specifically aware of what exactly DOES happen on a daily basis in prisons including what programs are offered for the men to participate in and exactly what results, skills, qualifications, etc. are achieved and by what percentage of the inmates.

Because I know that before I ever set foot in a prison, I had a general picture of what it was like in my own mind, derived from what I'd read or seen in movies and/or on tv. Where else would I get any impressions from? I'd never been inside a prison- I'd never known anyone who'd been an inmate.
And what I found when I actually did set foot inside a prison was totally different from the picture I had painted for myself in my head.

So I was thinking that it'd be worthwhile to facilitate 'tours' in some way so people can see where their tax dollars are going and what they are funding. And I know - there'd be a lot of logistics to work out. Everyone who walks through the gate would have to have an enhanced CRB check - there'd have to be some sort of way to get the mens' permission to have their circumstances open to scrutiny by members of the public - the whole data protection aspect of it would be a nightmare - that's probably why its not done - BUT if it could somehow be all figured out and put in place, I think this one simple act would accomplish so much more than millions of pounds thrown at the 'problem' by the exchequer (or however you spell it).

It's not about money, it's about attitudes. And it's about attitudes of people who are 'well adjusted' and 'respected' upstanding and law-abiding citizens as much as it is about criminality and its effect on society. Because some of the attitudes of the well-adjusted people contribute to the situational environment that contributes to recidivism.
I have enough faith and belief in people to believe that this isn't malicious or intentional - it's simply due to lack of access to information. But what if we could give people that information?
Then the blind/trouble spots for both ends of the spectrum could be addressed.
Yeah - I think that's a great idea. Or at least it's an idea - and someplace to start.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Sep, 2010 04:10 am
@aidan,
Quote:
Because I know that before I ever set foot in a prison, I had a general picture of what it was like in my own mind, derived from what I'd read or seen in movies and/or on tv. Where else would I get any impressions from? I'd never been inside a prison- I'd never known anyone who'd been an inmate.
And what I found when I actually did set foot inside a prison was totally different from the picture I had painted for myself in my head.


Which means, at first glance, that what you had read or seen in movies and/or on tv has given you a "totally different" impression to the reality. Obviously, that opens up the possibility that what you have read or seen in movies and/or on tv has given you a false impression of everything else unless prisons are an exception.

I think the case made to an MP will stand or fall on the case rather than on you not being a British citizen.

I can't see guided tours being accepted by the POA unless they consist of people already professionally engaged in these matters.

It is about money.

What I think you should do is your "bit" with those prisoners you do come into contact with. The field is well ploughed.

But your heart's in the right place and I commend you for that. I'm playing Devil's Advocate to toughen you up.



aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 02:03 am
@spendius,
Quote:
What I think you should do is your "bit" with those prisoners you do come into contact with.

Yeah, and that might even be all that's expected.
But it's like if someone were in an accident and had to have their legs casted (in plaster) and they're healing right on schedule, enough to leave the hospital, but they're supposed to have physical therapy when they get out, but they don't so the muscles atrophy and their movement in compromised to the point that they have to be put back in the hospital and have surgery to lengthen their tendons - which they wouldn't have needed if they were given the after-care that was required in the first place.

You know what I'm saying? I can't just look at these guys and say, 'Well, they're only my problem while they're here - after they're out of here - they're not my problem.'
Because:
a) I get to know them as people, not just reminders or indicators of a crime that's been committed
and
b)they ARE still my problem if they still have a problem because I DO live in this society.

So I think I will honestly look into doing something with/or around the whole resettlement issue because I think that's where it all falls down for these guys.
And though I understand why it has to be as it is, to keep people safe, I think that cutting these guys off from any and all of the supports they've gathered and come to rely on in prison, is not only cruel but self-defeating - in terms of building a system that works in each phase of the rehabilitative process.

Quote:
But your heart's in the right place and I commend you for that.

Thank you. This job has been a gift to me.
Quote:
I'm playing Devil's Advocate to toughen you up.

Why do I have to be tough(er)? I say 'tougher' because I think I am as tough as I need to be. I don't want to be any tougher. I think toughness- or the ability to harden one's heart or mind toward people who are vulnerable might be the very thing that led to some of these problems in the first place-you know the ability or desire some portray themselves to have to whip people when they're down, etc.
I think there's already too much of that- although David might disagree with me.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 03:29 am
@aidan,
I didn't mean toughen you up to the point of being hard bitten. I meant exposing you to positions you will come up against if you take matters further than your own responsibilities.

The more criminals that get rehabilitated the less jobs there are in the prison service. It's generally unspoken but it is still a significant force to be reckoned with.

Officers Mackay and Barrowclough in Porrige represent the two extreme positions. Up to a point.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 06:56 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
... some of the attitudes of the well-adjusted people contribute to the situational environment that contributes to recidivism. ..... this isn't malicious or intentional - it's simply due to lack of access to information.........Yeah - I think that's a great idea.....

I'd also like to help with the implementation of your idea, so I located a suitable opener for your proposal to the Prison Reform Trust:
Quote:
What sort of things do you remember best?' Alice ventured to ask.
`Oh, things that happened the week after next,' the Queen replied in a careless tone. `For instance, now,' she went on, sticking a large piece of plaster on her finger as she spoke, `there's the King's Messenger. He's in prison now, being punished: and the trial doesn't even begin till next Wednesday: and of course the crime comes last of all.'
`Suppose he never commits the crime?' said Alice.
`That would be all the better, wouldn't it?' the Queen said, as she bound the plaster round her finger with a bit of ribbon.
Alice felt there was no denying that.
`Of course it would be all the better,' she said: `but it wouldn't be all the better his being punished.'
`You're wrong there, at any rate,' said the Queen.

aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 07:48 am
@High Seas,
Yeah - interesting High Seas.

You know - I don't know what you want from me, but I do know you're probably never gonna get it so you might as well give up.

Have a nice day - ya'll hear?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 08:40 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I meant exposing you to positions you will come up against if you take matters further than your own responsibilities.


When I wrote that Rebecca I was thinking of the specific case you have in hand. But on reflection it has a more general application. spendi's Red Flag Law for all occasions except maybe artistic endevours. The artist is never responsible. What you get with responsibility is lower-middle-class art and the lower-middle-classes can talk it up all they like in the journals and the "art" programmes for the well-educated person (has a certificate), but it ain't art. It takes one to know one. Coronation Street does art a bit. It flatters its patron. Responsible art is the lower-middle-class flattering itself, like at wine tastings, and that class of persons has been plastered with so much odium since Homer that it is hard to not admire it for keep coming up for more. The plastering is the emblazoned emblem of the artist. Sid Vicous singing My Way for example. Have you ever heard somebody sing that with a Birmingham accent. I once did it in a Lancashire accent and it brought the party to its knees. You should hear me do Tom Finney's version of Blowin' in the Wind.

We get anaesthetised from responsibility when we take certain drugs only some of which are licenced. With a constant search by scientists for a new one to beat the testers. One that blows the mind that hasn't been legislated against yet. Cheap to produce so that toffee bottles full of it can be sealed and buried in a safe place for when it is.

Hence the up-take of such chemical responsibity inhibitors is scientific proof that there's a significant demand for responsibilty inhibition even at the risk of social disapproval expressed in a calibrated range up to where you are professionally engaged. In China they shoot the most disapproved of.

Many a person, a lot of whom you will know, owe their very existence to a lapse in responsibility. Just the one. Maybe two if they were discussed ab ova with a view to aborting the mission and survived it and are a bit of an asshole now.

The key words there are "calibrated range". What you have in your prison is a calibrated system. It has been managed by the best experts we can get for the money and it is the rsponsibilty of a senior member of the Cabinet. And has been for a long time. You are challenging the position calibrated. And it will answer--"Who is this bloody Yank schoolmarm shoving her nose in here with the Florence Nightingale flounce plus a slow drawl and spouting her liberal, rote-learned, fancy ideas as if these lads are a cage full of budgies being trained to know where to perch." To render that authentic insert a few obscenities here and there as you think fit. Change a noun or two as well. And worse than that.

It's very complicated Rebecca. The whole system of calibrated disapproval is designed to produce an agreed stasis.

It's like sin only you have to live it in this life. One might move religious penances up and down in terms of severity depending what one wished to achieve. One might make pre-marital sex a sin to give it that exciting frisson of naughtiness and then institute three Our Fathers and three Hail Marys as the approved penance to encourage the swains and wenches to desist from engaging in it. Within a short while the bells are ringing for the weddings and not long after for the baptisms and within a few years there are fleets putting to sea to conquer the world. Calibrated.

You might as well play chess against Boris Spasky. Or try to get Andrew Strauss out with your underarm long-hops.

You might be running the men in America but here it is all faked.





OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 09:40 am
@aidan,
Quote:
I'm playing Devil's Advocate to toughen you up.
aidan wrote:
Why do I have to be tough(er)? I say 'tougher' because I think I am as tough as I need to be. I don't want to be any tougher.
I think toughness- or the ability to harden one's heart or mind toward people who are vulnerable might be the very thing that led to some of these problems in the first place-you know the ability or desire some portray themselves to have to whip people when they're down, etc.


I think there's already too much of that-
although David might disagree with me.
Well only to the extent that one of the primary purposes of prisons is to avenge victims of crime.
If prisons stop executing that function,
THEN, the moral right to get even reverts
to the victim or his friends.





David
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 09:43 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
Prison alternatives in the US came up in a completely different context on another thread; I'd be very interested in your and David's opinions:

My opinion is that your friend should cut out the drinking.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 09:53 am
@joefromchicago,
True - the judge did him a favor in that sense. I just thought his rationale very interesting: he said he'd rather have to explain on his CV the circumstances behind a few days in jail than the circumstances leading to psychiatric counseling of any sort - a bigger red flag than actual imprisonment.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 11:11 am
@High Seas,
We have a system that expunges records of short sentences if there is no return to offending within about three years of release. I mean as if they never happened. Legally. I think, I'm not certain, that it is an offence after this period has elapsed to publicise that a person has been in jail.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Sep, 2010 12:34 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Have you ever heard somebody sing that with a Birmingham accent.

No, but I love a Brummy accent. Everything they say sounds like they're singing- it's very melodic:
'Y' all RIGHT then m' LUV-ly?' Da DA da da DA da....it's like a song.
A Lancashire accent - I'd need to hear that to imagine it - that's one I'm not as familiar with.
Quote:

You should hear me do Tom Finney's version of Blowin' in the Wind.

Oh sure - I'd love to hear you sing sometime.
Anytime you're ready.

Quote:
and are a bit of an asshole now.

Why would you assume that?

Quote:
Who is this bloody Yank schoolmarm shoving her nose in here with the Florence Nightingale flounce plus a slow drawl and spouting her liberal, rote-learned, fancy ideas as if these lads are a cage full of budgies being trained to know where to perch."


Florence Nightingale - now there's a compliment, except I doubt she flounced and neither do I . Schoolmarm? Why do you always deal in such stereotypes?
And I grew up in NJ so I don't drawl, slowly or otherwise - you can believe that - but if you don't - ask David - he'll tell you.

And my ideas haven't been learned by rote- they're ideas - where would I have learned them?

And the behavior I'm talking about changing at this point is not that of the 'lads'. I don't think you read my last two posts very carefully.

Quote:
You might as well play chess against Boris Spasky. Or try to get Andrew Strauss out with your underarm long-hops.

So you're saying it's hopeless? Well, that's one way to think about it- maybe you're right. Maybe you're not. I guess we'll see.

Quote:
You might be running the men in America but here it is all faked.

As far as I'm aware, I'm not running anything - except my household.

 

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