Alternatives to jail/prison

@OmSigDAVID,

It can go either way - that's for sure.

@aidan,

Don't be so polite Rebecca. How can some alleged incident over a re-modelled kitchen have any bearing on discussions relating to improving the prison service? We'll be introducing a 20 mph speed limit next because David claimed his fender got dented.

I would like to see his hierarchy of graduated sentencing. He would get seven years here, and in most of Europe, for carrying a loaded pistol in public.

He has nothing worthwhile to say on the topic. Nothing he suggests is remotely likely to come to pass.

2 Replies

@spendius,

The only possibility I can think of to save David is that he is operating the Swiftian Modest Proposal technique. That is a system whereby you attack an idea by supporting it in the most ridiculous manner you can think of. It is impossible to rule out if the person using it can keep a straight face.

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

I don't know about you, but the way I read that it says that incarceration is not the best option for rehabilitation - which is exactly what you said.

If that's all you meant to say in this thread, then I'm not sure why you bothered. Everyone knows that incarceration isn't the best option for rehabilitation, in much the same way that everyone knows that capital punishment isn't the best option for rehabilitation. But then rehabilitation isn't the sole aim of punishment. If it were, we'd tear down all the prisons.

aidan wrote:

And I also said that I'm beginning to see that it may not even be the best option to achieve any sort of punishment or deterence - as many men I see in prison admit to having a harder time living on the outside.

Again, prisons aren't designed primarily to deter other people from committing crimes, they're designed to prevent the inmates from committing crimes while they're in prison. In that respect, they do a pretty good job.

aidan wrote:

What I am interested in is trying to come up with solutions - societal solutions- that will enable prisons to do and achieve what they are meant to do and achieve.

They're meant primarily to keep the inmates from committing crimes during the duration of their sentences. If any rehabilitation goes on behind the walls, then that's just a bonus.

aidan wrote:

I don't hold the bleak view that NO rehabilitation ever takes place.

Neither do I.

aidan wrote:

The problem I see with incarceration is that it becomes comfortable - it becomes a known quantity for some of these men, which is easier than the constant struggle for that one unknown lucky break they need to be able to turn everything around and make it on the outside that so few of them ever get.

If, for some people, prison becomes preferable to society, that's not a problem with prison, that's a problem with society.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Spendius has fallen into hysteria
because I disclosed n revealed his compromised (shall we say) veracity.

(Just have another pint, old boy.)

David

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

If that's all you meant to say in this thread, then I'm not sure why you bothered. Everyone knows that incarceration isn't the best option for rehabilitation, in much the same way that everyone knows that capital punishment isn't the best option for rehabilitation. But then rehabilitation isn't the sole aim of punishment. If it were, we'd tear down all the prisons.

Well, for someone who obviously thinks he's so smart and has all the answers to the point that he has to engage in discourse that undermines people he's decided he has no need to speak to with even a modicum of respect, you sure aren't a very careful reader - or maybe you just have problems with comprehension.

This was the opening sentence of the opening post of this thread:

Quote:

I'm interested in what people think about our current method of inflicting punishment/requiring rehabilitation and what, if any, alternative solutions to the problem of criminality in society you'd espouse as viable.

You've used every single post you've made here to tell me how I'm wrong instead of using your obvious intellect and inside knowledge which appears to be more than mine and everyone else's combined to continue to tell me how I don't understand what doesn't work and why it doesn't work and that it doesn't work in the way that I already know it doesn't work instead of proffering one viable or useful thought or answer to my opening query.
If this were an assignment - you'd get an F.

Quote:

Again, prisons aren't designed primarily to deter other people from committing crimes, they're designed to prevent the inmates from committing crimes while they're in prison. In that respect, they do a pretty good job

Uh, duh? Oh, I thought they were designed primarily to prevent inmates from becoming bored or tired - I thought they were designed primarily to provide inmates with a nice holiday.
Jesus- I thought lawyers were supposed to be careful readers.
This is what I said in my second post on this subject:

Quote:

What I'm asking, because I was asked and I couldn't think of another viable alternative, is if anyone else can come up with an idea about a penal system or code that does not necessarily include incarceration that would serve the twin purposes of enforcing lawful behavior and protecting the public.

Quote:

They're meant primarily to keep the inmates from committing crimes during the duration of their sentences. If any rehabilitation goes on behind the walls, then that's just a bonus.

No, not really. Now I'll tell you that you're wrong there. Because if no rehabilitation goes on, you'd have a recidivism rate of 100%.

And whether or not you think I should have bothered with this thread makes no difference to me because I got something out of it. It helped clarify my thought processes about the 'problem' and made me see it in a different light.

Yes, the problem is in society. But I was thinking it was in the society these people experience BEFORE they become involved in criminal activity; the society that produces people damaged through abuse, and marginalization through poverty and just plain old meanness - one person being dismissive of and disrepectful to another for no reason - which is how a lot of these guys have been treated their entire lives (thank god I only have to put up with it on this forum once in a while).
Can you imagine what it must be like to have someone talk to you with total and utter disrespect and disregard every single day of your life? I can't - maybe that's why I believe in myself.
And can you imagine knowing that when you get out you will be looked at and spoken to and dismissed with utter disrespect and disregard every single day for the REST of your life?

I think that's why I do see rehabilitation happening within the walls of the prison. Because I don't know about anywhere else, but I know where I work, these men are treated with respect- maybe for the first time in their lives. Their talents and skills are encouraged and nurtured. And then they have to get out and all of that dissolves again into disregard and disrespect and distrust and dismissal.
Yeah, so now I see the problem is also with society AFTER they get out. Everyone wants to talk about recidivism and put that totally on the shoulders of the recidivist- but nobody wants to give any of these people a chance so that the impetus for behavior that is recidivist will no longer be there.

And yes, some people enjoy criminality. But I think the majority that I see would give their right arm to get out and have a chance at a job that will support a life and maybe even a family.

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

He has nothing worthwhile to say on the topic. Nothing he suggests is remotely likely to come to pass.

At least he's making suggestions instead of criticizing the question.

No, I'm always interested to hear the opposite viewpoint - which David's often is as it relates to mine.
And I also figure it's good that he's reading along. Maybe he'll learn something Laughing

Just kidding David.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Spendius has fallen into hysteria
because I disclosed n revealed his compromised (shall we say) veracity.

Where was this? I must have missed it.

1 Reply

@aidan,

David wrote:

Spendius has fallen into hysteria
because I disclosed n revealed his compromised (shall we say) veracity.

aidan wrote:

Where was this? I must have missed it.

See page 2 Post: # 4,353,370

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I reread the post, but I don't understand your reference to 'hysteria' and 'his compromised (shall we say) veracity'.
Can you explain what you mean?

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

I reread the post, but I don't understand your reference to 'hysteria' and 'his compromised (shall we say) veracity'.
Can you explain what you mean?

In Post: # 4,353,335 he said: "Do you want the human race never to be healed . . . ? "
implying that it needed to be healed from something in the past.

In Post: # 4,353,339, I asked him "healed from what??"
obviously continuing to refer to some past condition
from which the race is not "healed".

In Post: # 4,353,356, Spendius answers speculating about
what I will do in the future as being the cause of what shoud be healed, to wit:
" What you would cause . . . "; i.e., the race needs to be HEALED
from what I WOUD cause (in the future).

Obviously this is a lie.
He coud not possibly have been complaining in the aforesaid Post: # 4,353,335
about the condition of the human race caused by what (he speculates) I 'd do IN THE FUTURE.

In Post: # 4,353,553 Spendius falls into a hysterical denunciation
of myself (q.v.), in retribution for my exposing his failure of veracity.

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

I'm sorry, David, but I have to disagree about the 'hysteria'. I'd have to say he remains fairly calm as he attributes your future behavior as causation for problems that have already arisen,

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

I didn't respond to your hysterical post 4,353,370 Dave for obvious reasons.

In it you implied that the expression "open prison" is an oxymoron. It isn't.

Then I told you that some prisons do manufacture useful things. Road signs. Some are involved in agriculture.

I told you of the objections of trades unions to going further. To which you said "let them be damned" and asked if our country is being run for the benefit of union members.

Which it isn't but as they have millions of members they have a say in how the country is run. It isn't a black/white issue as you hysterically try to make out. So your claim to "have a solution" is ridiculous and hysterical. Letting unions "be damned" is no solution.

I wrote--"Another problem is that judges might send more people to prison
for longer periods in order the make money for their friends. (As as happened recently in the USA).

To which you replied--"U mean, as distinct from HATRED for the offenses against the victims, right ?"

No--not right. You entirely miss the point. Whipped slavery, which you suggested, has nothing to do with hatred of the offences. The Soviet Gulags are a better case in point. And many people are unwittingly buying goods in shops which are made in prisons in the far east. There's a suspicion abroad that a motive for capital punishment in China is to provide organs for rich westerners.

You asked "Healed from what?"

The need for these discussions. And for "What you would cause if you weren't as powerless and as ineffective as you obviously are."

And your response that my "answer is INEFFECTIVELY deceptive and mendacious, as examination of your recent posts reveals" is asserted bullshit with no meaning. You are obviously powerless and ineffective because your solutions are not in operation. It is self evident that nobody is taking the slightest notice of any of your recommendations. And you're too wimpy to go all the way with crucifixtions in the market squares with electrified nails, which passers by can energise for a dime a time, for ALL offences.

You wrote--"to which Spendius speculates about what I 'd do in the future."

Why would I do that when I know you'll never do anything nor be asked to make any suggestions because you come at the problem for no other reason than to jack your ego off.

You sign off with a slimy sneer: "Has Spendius fallen into hypocrisy ????"

The answer is no he hasn't.

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

I'm sorry, David, but I have to disagree about the 'hysteria'.
I'd have to say he remains fairly calm as he attributes your future behavior as causation for problems that have already arisen,

Maybe his logic collapses that way even WITHOUT his falling into hysteria.

David

1 Reply

See what I mean Rebecca? There's no discussing anything profitably with people who talk like that. There's no explanation of why my logic collapses and even then it only "maybe" does. So the smear is got in without him being technically committed to it which is the usual method for daring bungee jumping in a safety harness.

0 Replies

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Well, for someone who obviously thinks he's so smart and has all the answers to the point that he has to engage in discourse that undermines people he's decided he has no need to speak to with even a modicum of respect, you sure aren't a very careful reader - or maybe you just have problems with comprehension.

Show me where I spoke to you disrespectfully.

aidan wrote:

This was the opening sentence of the opening post of this thread:

Quote:
I'm interested in what people think about our current method of inflicting punishment/requiring rehabilitation and what, if any, alternative solutions to the problem of criminality in society you'd espouse as viable.

You've used every single post you've made here to tell me how I'm wrong instead of using your obvious intellect and inside knowledge which appears to be more than mine and everyone else's combined to continue to tell me how I don't understand what doesn't work and why it doesn't work and that it doesn't work in the way that I already know it doesn't work instead of proffering one viable or useful thought or answer to my opening query.
If this were an assignment - you'd get an F.

My first post in this thread addressed precisely that question. But then you decided that you didn't actually want to talk about that, you wanted to talk about rehabilitation and how some prisoners actually preferred being in prison. Fine. My next post addressed those points. Now you want to go back to your original question. That's fine too. I don't mind addressing your points as you raise them. I do mind, however, being criticized for following your argument more closely than you seem to be doing.

aidan wrote:

Uh, duh? Oh, I thought they were designed primarily to prevent inmates from becoming bored or tired - I thought they were designed primarily to provide inmates with a nice holiday.

Well, no, they're designed to ... oh wait, you're being sarcastic. Nicely played.

aidan wrote:

This is what I said in my second post on this subject:

Quote:
What I'm asking, because I was asked and I couldn't think of another viable alternative, is if anyone else can come up with an idea about a penal system or code that does not necessarily include incarceration that would serve the twin purposes of enforcing lawful behavior and protecting the public.

Refer back to my initial post.

aidan wrote:

No, not really. Now I'll tell you that you're wrong there.

Ow, you're mean! Can I now accuse you of addressing me disrespectfully?

aidan wrote:

Because if no rehabilitation goes on, you'd have a recidivism rate of 100%.

That may very well be true. But then that wasn't the question that you raised in your first post, or in any subsequent post. You wanted to know if there was an alternative to incarceration, not what was the right balance to strike between incarceration and rehabilitation. If you now want to address that point, I'll be happy to oblige. I just wish you'd make up your mind.

aidan wrote:

And whether or not you think I should have bothered with this thread makes no difference to me because I got something out of it. It helped clarify my thought processes about the 'problem' and made me see it in a different light.

I'm glad.

1 Reply

@spendius,

U appear to have lost your mind
with references to "electrified nails" for "crucifixtions".
U r kinda approaching freaking me out.

spendius wrote:

I didn't respond to your hysterical post 4,353,370 Dave for obvious reasons.

In it you implied that the expression "open prison" is an oxymoron. It isn't.

THAT must be an "obvious" reason to not respond.

spendius wrote:

Then I told you that some prisons do manufacture useful things. Road signs. Some are involved in agriculture.

I told you of the objections of trades unions to going further.
To which you said "let them be damned" and asked if our country is being run for the benefit of union members.

I already KNOW all this Spendius; I 've read the thread and I wrote a good part of it.

spendius wrote:

Which it isn't but as they have millions of
members they have a say in how the country is run.
It isn't a black/white issue as you hysterically try to make out.
So your claim to "have a solution" is ridiculous and hysterical.
Letting unions "be damned" is no solution.

Try it and see.

spendius wrote:

I wrote--"Another problem is that judges might send more people to prison
for longer periods in order the make money for their friends.
(As as happened recently in the USA).

To which you replied--"U mean, as distinct from HATRED for the offenses against the victims, right ?"

R u re-hashing everything against the chance that I 've forgotten it all since last nite ????

spendius wrote:

No--not right. You entirely miss the point.
Whipped slavery, which you suggested, has nothing to do with
hatred of the offences. The Soviet Gulags are a better case in point.
And many people are unwittingly buying goods in shops which are
made in prisons in the far east.

I have boycotted the Red Chinese.

spendius wrote:

There's a suspicion abroad that a motive for capital punishment in China is to provide organs for rich westerners.

You asked "Healed from what?"

The need for these discussions.

U demand cloture???
No more discussions ?

spendius wrote:

And for "What you would cause if you weren't as powerless and as ineffective as you obviously are."

And your response that my "answer is INEFFECTIVELY deceptive and mendacious, as examination of your recent posts reveals"
is asserted bullshit with no meaning.

Your position is logically UNTENABLE; therefore, u hide behind emotion,
hoping to fend off further scrutiny by your excrementitious references,
because your (absence of) reasoning cannot withstand the light of day.

Being ashamed of your hypocritical posting,
u pretend that u cannot see it (hoping that we will all forget it).

spendius wrote:

You are obviously powerless and ineffective because your solutions are not in operation.

In my A2K profile, I have made it clear that I am in a state of retirement.
My goal is to have FUN, not power. Your post falsely implies that I have held myself out
to the world as being a man of POWER.
That never happened; I never said anything of the kind.
I don 't wanna be bothered with power; I wanna be bothered with relaxation.

spendius wrote:

It is self evident that nobody is taking the slightest notice of any of your recommendations.
And you're too wimpy to go all the way with crucifixtions in the
market squares with electrified nails,[ ?? ] which passers by can energise for a dime a time, for ALL offences.

YEAH, I 've never tried to get any "electrified nails"; u got me there, Spendius.
Surely that will be the new scandal of A2K.

spendius wrote:

You wrote--"to which Spendius speculates about what I 'd do in the future."

I did that; its there for all to see.

spendius wrote:

Why would I do that

Its a MYSTERY to me, Spendius.

spendius wrote:

when I know you'll never do anything nor be asked to make any suggestions
because you come at the problem for no other reason than to jack your ego off.

Y, O, Y do u care whether anyone asks me for (pro bono ??) suggestions, Spendius ?????
Another mystery; u r full of them.

spendius wrote:

You sign off with a slimy sneer: "Has Spendius fallen into hypocrisy ????"

That sneer was not slimy, u limey.

spendius wrote:

The answer is no he hasn't.

That is false.
When u attributed the cause (in the past) of whatever phenomena had to be "healed" in the human race,
to the actions that U conjecture that I WILL DO in the future, u did not believe what u posted.

I bet that U r not stupid enuf to believe THAT.
C'mon, fess up: u r really not that dum, right ??????

Ergo, your posted answer was hypocritical.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

How did a person that routinely displays such a willfull, studied ignorance ever last as a lawyer. It scares me to think that there are scum equal to you out there practicing law.

There's even a rumor afloat that you are in a Mensa group. HTF did that ever happen. You can't even string together anything resembling an actual position. All you do is spit out one worn cliche after another; guns, here's my pat phrase, communist/socialist, "Now where did I put my phrase book?"

0 Replies

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

Show me where I spoke to you disrespectfully.

You know what - you didn't. You didn't deserve for me to be so sarcastic to you and I sincerely apologize for that.

I did reread your first post and you're right - you did address the question. I'll have to read the reference you made to criminality/disease before I can comment on it.

I think what started to really bother me and struck me as disrespectful -although reading through it again, I can see it's probably not meant to be, it's just your opinion- is the constant reiteration that no rehabilitation takes place in prisons.
And I guess I took that personally - because if it's not happening, I have to ask myself, 'What the hell am I doing there then?'
You know what I mean? Every day and all the effort I and all my colleagues expend is just swept away in peoples' minds when they say - 'Oh yeah- nothing of any value happens there. Those people are just caged up and kept out of society's hair.'
And it's sort of disappointing to find that people really believe that.

And that's what struck me reading this this morning. It's exactly THAT attitude that greets these men when they walk back out of the prison gates. People look at them as they're filling out job applications and say to themselves, 'Oh, that person is still the same exact person who got in a fight, or stole a woman's purse, or got stopped with drugs in his car...there's no way that anything of value happened in that prison to have helped him change his attitudes and recognize his mistakes.'
And that's just so ******* depressing. Because it's not TRUE! Some of these guys work their asses off to better themselves, and use their time inside to make great strides personally, academically, physically - and apparently no one on the outside even believes that's a possibility.

Yeah - I guess I was taking that attitude you were expressing rather personally. Because it does mean a lot to me and it does highlight for me exactly what these guys are up against when they get out.

And okay - if we tear the prisons down- how can we help rehabilitate these people?
I'm not that interested in punishment. I know it has to happen - but that's not my job. I want to know what we who work in the prison service can do to convince the general public that some positive change is happening inside those walls, so that when the men get released at least some part of society will believe they might have achieved some small change and give them a chance to prove it.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

U appear to have lost your mind
with references to "electrified nails" for "crucifixtions".
U r kinda approaching freaking me out.

Dear me. What a big soft pussy you actually are. You want capital punishment and torture to deter criminals and remove them and you want also to be all squishy and sentimental about it.

The rest of your post is gibberish. Working people know what damning the unions will get them. They are damned in many countries. But not in our's thank goodness.

1 Reply

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