Alternatives to jail/prison

@OmSigDAVID,

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Well only to the extent that one of the primary purposes of prisons is to avenge victims of crime.

I guess now I've moved on in my thoughts to thinking about what happens after they get out David- after they've paid their debts to society.
That's when/what I was referring to when I referenced 'whipping a person when they're down.'

1 Reply

@aidan,

David wrote:

Well only to the extent that one of the primary purposes of prisons is to avenge victims of crime.

aidan wrote:

I guess now I've moved on in my thoughts to thinking about what happens after they get out David-
after they've paid their debts to society.
That's when/what I was referring to when I referenced 'whipping a person when they're down.'

MY point is that EITHER
u DO or u DON 'T have prisons which avenge the victims of crime.

If u don 't then,
morally, the right to get even REVERTS
to the victim or to his surrogate friends.

David

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@High Seas,

Quote:

I have a friend who was involved in a single-car accident (he was driving very fast, drunk, crashed into a highway abutment but wasn't hurt) and was given by the judge the option of undergoing counseling in lieu of a few days in prison; my friend told the judge he'd rather go to prison. The judge - obviously a decent sort - tried to explain the disadvantages of having a prison sentence on one's record, but my friend was adamant. Finally the judge let him go with a warning.

Because this crime had no actual victim,
I have no objection to waiver of criminal penalty.

IF there had been a victim thereof,
then that woud have been DIFFERENT.

In this case, there was no one to avenge.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

What a bloody silly argument Dave.

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@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

True - the judge did him a favor in that sense. I just thought his rationale very interesting: he said he'd rather have to explain on his CV the circumstances behind a few days in jail than the circumstances leading to psychiatric counseling of any sort - a bigger red flag than actual imprisonment.

The CVs that I have read describe his educational background and his experience on-the-job
(usually prestigeous positions e.g. Chairman of the Bio-Chemestry Dept. Yale University [dates]).

UNLESS the subject time in a jail were of such duration
as to raise questions qua gaps in time,
I see no reason to include this on a Curriculum Vitae.

David

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

What?? Putting the lives of innocent, sober citizens at greater risk to allow for his boozing not a reason to give us an idea of his priorities should not be on the record. You are one mixed up citizen Dave.

Somebody strangling the wife in a fit of incandescent rage brought on by frustration is more forgiveable.

1 Reply

@spendius,

spendius wrote:

What?? Putting the lives of innocent, sober citizens at greater risk to allow for his boozing not a reason to give us an idea of his priorities should not be on the record. You are one mixed up citizen Dave.

Somebody strangling the wife in a fit of incandescent rage brought on by frustration is more forgiveable.

Spendius, I cannot begin to guess what u mean.
I have not the slightest idea of whether u r right or rong.

IF u wish to be understood,
please try it again with a vu toward clarity of expression.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

High Seas wrote:
True - the judge did him a favor in that sense. I just thought his rationale very interesting: he said he'd rather have to explain on his CV the circumstances behind a few days in jail than the circumstances leading to psychiatric counseling of any sort - a bigger red flag than actual imprisonment.
The CVs that I have read describe his educational background and his experience on-the-job
(usually prestigeous positions e.g. Chairman of the Bio-Chemestry Dept. Yale University [dates]).

UNLESS the subject time in a jail were of such duration
as to raise questions qua gaps in time,
I see no reason to include this on a Curriculum Vitae.

David

ERRATUM:
It shoud have read: "...Bio-Chemistry Dept. . . . "

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Or , fonetikly - its kemestree.

So David - I'm curious. Do you think that George Michael should have been imprisoned for his crime?
And if you do, do you think his punishment should have been enforced in retribution for the shop window he broke, or because he was operating a motor vehicle dangerously under the influence of illegal substances?

Because the only victim of his crime was the shop owner who had his shopfront damaged. And George Michael had already paid for those repairs.

If the crime is victimless, do you think it's alright for the criminal behavior to go unpunished?

1 Reply

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Or , fonetikly - its kemestree.

So David - I'm curious. Do you think that George Michael should have been imprisoned for his crime?
And if you do, do you think his punishment should have been enforced in retribution for the shop window he broke, or because he was operating a motor vehicle dangerously under the influence of illegal substances?

Because the only victim of his crime was the shop owner who had his shopfront damaged. And George Michael had already paid for those repairs.

If the crime is victimless, do you think it's alright for the criminal behavior to go unpunished?

On re-consideration, I 've changed my mind in that his fellow citizens have a moral right to be avenged
for his exposing them to a higher level of danger each time that he committed that offense.

Accordingly, incarceration (or banishment) is justified.

Davi

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

. Chairman of the Bio-Chemistry Dept. Yale University

A member of the judge's own class I suppose. What would have been the outcome with a black garbage collector?

Anybody, I mean anybody, here would have been fined about $1,000 and banned from driving for 12 months as a minimum. Automatically. And that's with no crash. Simply for being over the limit allowed for alcohol in the blood. He/she would have a criminal record for about three years. Car insurance rate trebled.

Now you've changed your mind I needn't explain my previous post.

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@aidan,

Quote:

Florence Nightingale - now there's a compliment, except I doubt she flounced and neither do I . Schoolmarm? Why do you always deal in such stereotypes?

I've already explained that it has nothing to do with me. I'm showing you parts of what you're up against. You're not reading carefully enough Rebecca. You even have to ask--

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Why would you assume that?

when the asshole jest hadn't been looked at properly.

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And my ideas haven't been learned by rote- they're ideas - where would I have learned them?

That's an enormous question.

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And the behavior I'm talking about changing at this point is not that of the 'lads'. I don't think you read my last two posts very carefully.

Of course it's the "lads". What's the point otherwise? I read all your posts that I see carefully.

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So you're saying it's hopeless?

Not at all. Quite the contary in fact. You need allies. Meetings. A hierarchy.
On your own it is hopeless.

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You might be running the men in America but here it is all faked.

As far as I'm aware, I'm not running anything - except my household.

I obviously didn't mean "you" personally.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Aidan, reading your original post was rather interesting, because I couldn't help but wonder 'is aidans friend looking at the possibility of a long stint in prison'

But in answer to your question, Prisons are sometimes a necessity...but to me that necessity is for people who have to of necessity be separated from society, or done crimes so heinous and/or repetetive that no other punishment is appropriate.

For the vast majority of people, I would rather see private corporal punishment introduced. Corporal punishment has the benefit that it can be administered there and then and be done with - no appeals, no costly incarcerations, and most importantly an immediate and painful deterrent (we respond better to aversion to pain because it's genetic, than we avert the 'concept' of incarceration). Further prison tends to bring together criminal minds, and further indoctrinate criminals in the criminal world.

No, I'm not a fan of prisons, though I see a necessity for them in certain circumstances.

2 Replies

@vikorr,

Too simple vik. Too fraught with dangers.

How many people, well-paid people, would lose their jobs if crime was seriously reduced as it would be if the corporal punishment was severe enough. What's your tariff for the level of severity? What conditions would apply during the performance of the ritual? Would it brutalise society generally?

1 Reply

@spendius,

Ummm..well, the form I posted was indeed a very simplified form of how corporal punishment would actually work.

I'm not for lopping limbs off at all - that would raise problems with people who lose limbs accidentally.

Let me put it this way - I have no issue with a person being caught for stealing being given a warning (minor thefts anyway). If he's caught twice, he gets a little tattoo on the inside of a finger. If he's caught 3 times, he gets one on the outside of the finger. If he's caught 4 times, he gets the word 'Thief' tattoo'd on the back of his hand (that's the general concept). Of course this would create a problem with people wearing gloves, but I guess no system is perfect.

I also have no issue with non-marking floggings - the cane is a great example.

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What's your tariff for the level of severity?

Not sure what you mean by 'tariff', but you do understand that there is history of legislators setting down the maximum penalty for each offence? Why would that be any different under a corporal punishment concept?

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Would it brutalise society generally?

Why do think there's even a possibility of this occurring? Do you think if someone gets a cane then they go out an beat up someone else?

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@spendius,

Quote:

I've already explained that it has nothing to do with me. I'm showing you parts of what you're up against. You're not reading carefully enough Rebecca. You even have to ask--

Oh, okay. So all these stereotypes are your way of illustrating what everybody ELSE is thinking? I get it. I should have known - I kept thinking to myself, 'With his command of language why are all his descriptions so cliche(e)?d? Now I get it.

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Of course it's the "lads". What's the point otherwise? I read all your posts that I see carefully.

Yeah - okay. Yes, their behavior is the first behavior that needs to be changed. But then once that's been at least somewhat accomplished within the prison walls, it's the attitudes and behavior toward them they meet outside the prison that creates the conditions which stimulate recidivist behavior.

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Not at all. Quite the contary in fact. You need allies. Meetings. A hierarchy.
On your own it is hopeless.

Well, you'll be happy to know then, that I discussed this very issue with my class yesterday and one of the men has a cousin who apparently is the MP for a neighboring constituency and he gave me his name.
We also talked about raising funding to create a business - maybe a cafe or something- which would hire and train released offenders. I've also done some research and found out about NACRO- National Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders- so there's help out there.
Yeah - it's not totally hopeless for every single one of these guys.

*Oh yeah I also asked them if anyone could do a Lancashire accent for me - they said it's sort of like Yorkshire - pronouncing the hard 'r's and stuff or something and 'by gum something something.'
But nobody could really produce it well enough to give me an idea of what it'd sound like in Bob Dylan's voice.

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I obviously didn't mean "you" personally.

I know - I just think it's funny to take you literally when you're talking figuratively. I like to play the obtuse American airhead sometimes.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Quote:

Aidan, reading your original post was rather interesting, because I couldn't help but wonder 'is aidans friend looking at the possibility of a long stint in prison'

Not at this moment - at least not that I'm aware.

1 Reply

@aidan,

Well, I do hope not.

Still, the vehemance of his objection was somewhat odd. There's very few people in the world who would argue against the actual need for prison - they are needed for example to keep pedophiles away from children (most of them reoffend, and you can be almost certain that those that haven't 'reoffended' simply havent been caught), serial rapists, serial murders etc. 'Reahabilitation' itself is a good thing...in that it can give a person who never had an opportunity for an eduction an education...but there are many indoctrinated criminals whose first thing to do when they get out is commit more crimes (though they may think of it as 'get myself some money').

1 Reply

@aidan,

Quote:

Oh yeah I also asked them if anyone could do a Lancashire accent for me

Ee bah gum lass, thar a bonny bit o' crumpet an' noah mishtake. Tha mon as weel ged thi kit off nah an' gee us aw a gud luke at rest o' thee. Art aw reet at meking pies an' puddins an' scrubbin' mi back wen ah cum 'ooem frae pit?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuSW9kOBADo

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Quote:

but there are many indoctrinated criminals whose first thing to do when they get out is commit more crimes (though they may think of it as 'get myself some money').

I agree. There's definitely a subset of criminals who view it as a sort of game - they enjoy the challenge of trying to get one over on the system and the thrill of success when they do - enough so that they continue to risk prison as the consequence when the don't get one over.
There's probably no rehabilitating that.

One of the teachers I work with was talkng about a guy who was saying he was the best burglar there was and my colleague said, 'Well, not exactly. If you were you wouldn't be in here.'

It's very interesting- the stories and personalities definitely run the gamut.

0 Replies

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