10
   

Ethical values in Religious & Modern America?

 
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:09 am
http://able2know.org/topic/161065-1
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:15 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

They do not represent "America" (thank goodness!). They represent themselves.



Unfortunately, that isn't quite true. It's the same sentiment that says Islamic terrorists represent all Muslims. American Christians don't get to speak out of both sides of their mouths -- although they will try to. Ban a mosque here, burn a Koran there... it all adds up to radical elements usurping mainstream/traditional religion.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:20 am
@JPB,
Well you're there & I'm not, JPB. So probably you're in a better position to know.
Me, I have trouble believing that most Americans, say nothing of most US Christians, would believe that a public burning of the Koran at the end of Ramadan is exactly an intelligent idea.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:23 am
@msolga,
They probably don't. But they don't (or shouldn't) get to claim that radical elements of one religion represent the entire faith and then not expect to wear the same cloak themselves.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:28 am
@JPB,
Sorry, I'm not quite clear what you meant by that last post, JPB.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:39 am
@msolga,
I'm actually hopeful that this event, whether it takes place or not, opens the dialogue between faiths. My fear, however, is that the world-wide media play will focus on the flames and the dancing - just the way it did on/around 9/11 - and invoke more anger and misunderstanding among moderate, mainstream believers of both faiths.

There are many American Christians (I'm searching for current statistics) who believe that radical elements of Islam are representative of the faith. But they feel justified in stating that radical elements of Christianity don't represent them or their faith. My hope is that more folks will see themselves in the mirror of bigotry and hypocrisy. I'll probably be disappointed.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:46 am
I thought some of you might be interested to see how this situation was being presented by the media outside the US. This is what was published in one newspaper in the city I live in (in Australia) today:

Quote:
US religious leaders denounce 'anti-Muslim frenzy'
Simon Mann, Washington
September 9, 2010/the AGE

http://images.theage.com.au/2010/09/08/1914864/Koran-420x0.jpg
Terry Jones plans to burn copies of the Koran to mark the September 11 attacks. Photo: AP

AMERICAN religious leaders have condemned the plans of a small evangelical Christian church in Florida to burn copies of the Koran on Saturday's ninth anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks.

The leaders also denounced what they said was a gathering ''anti-Muslim frenzy'' in America, describing recent protests against the building of a mosque near Ground Zero in New York as the result of ''misinformation and outright bigotry'' against American Muslims.

The interfaith group of evangelical, Catholic, Jewish and Muslim leaders meeting in Washington condemned the call by Pastor Terry Jones of the Dove World Outreach Centre in Gainesville to burn copies of the Muslim holy book to ''expose Islam'' as a ''violent and oppressive religion''.
Advertisement: Story continues below

The leaders said the plan was a violation of American values.

''This is not the America that we all have grown to love and care about,'' said Rabbi Steve Gutow of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs. ''We have to stand up for our Muslim brothers and sisters and say, 'This is not OK'.''

Pastor Jones's plans were also condemned by the White House and by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who described them as a disrespectful and disgraceful act. The US commander in Afghanistan, General David Petraeus, warned earlier that the act would endanger the lives of US troops overseas, claims supported by White House press spokesman Robert Gibbs: ''Obviously any type of activity like that, that puts our troops in harm's way, would be a concern to this administration.''

The 58-year-old preacher, whose congregation numbers about 30, said he and church members planned to burn about 200 copies of the Koran to send a message to al-Qaeda, the group that carried out the terror attacks on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon that killed almost 3000 people.

''That led us to 'International Burn a Koran Day' to honour those who were murdered at that time,'' said Pastor Jones. ''And to put a real clear message out to Islam that we will not tolerate, we do not want them trying to push their agenda on us, in other words, Sharia law.''

Later, he qualified his remarks, saying they were not directed towards moderate Muslims. ''We are not hateful toward Muslims. We are not aiming this at Muslims, we are aiming this at Sharia.''

Pastor Jones was dismissed as a fringe figure by locals who regretted his growing worldwide notoriety. ''He represents only 30 people in this town,'' said Larry Reimer, one local pastor trying to counter Pastor Jones's message. ''It needs to get out somehow to the rest of the world that this isn't the face of Christianity.''

Pastor Jones has previously called for a ban on new mosques being built in America and a stop to the immigration of Muslims. He has also campaigned against a local mayor who is gay, erecting signs in the church grounds that read: ''No homo mayor at city hall.''

The pastor has said that church members carry guns because of threats the church has received.

The Dove World Outreach Centre is not linked to any particular denomination, but follows a Pentecostal tradition.

While the tiny church's actions are testing the bounds of religious tolerance, authorities are powerless to stop the protest because the first amendment of the US constitution guarantees freedom of speech.

Fire officials are believed to have denied the church a fire permit for Saturday.

The planned burning has triggered emotions across the world, fuelling protests in Muslim nations and calls for restraint from Christians.

The Vatican newspaper yesterday published an article in which Catholic bishops criticised Pastor Jones's plan. ''No one should burn the Koran,'' Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said in a commentary.

The leaders meeting in Washington said they were appalled at ''such disrespect for a sacred text that for centuries has shaped many of the great cultures of our world''.

Pastor Jones has resisted calls to abandon his protest, although yesterday evening he indicated he might be willing to reconsider.

With AGENCIES


http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-religious-leaders-denounce-antimuslim-frenzy-20100908-1518u.html
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:50 am
@JPB,
Quote:
There are many American Christians (I'm searching for current statistics) who believe that radical elements of Islam are representative of the faith. But they feel justified in stating that radical elements of Christianity don't represent them or their faith.


Ah. I see what you meant now.
Thanks, JPB.
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:52 am
@msolga,
I watched the meeting that was held in D.C. on CSpan yesterday. They archive their videos on their website, if you're interested.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 10:57 am
@Irishk,
Yes, I definitely would be, Irishk. Thanks.

(Now I'll just have to figure out how to access it. Wink )
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 11:11 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I understand that the instigators of this Koran burning event are in fact a tiny "church", or religious group. With something like 50 members.
There has been widespread public condemnation of this intended book burning by prominent religious & political leaders in the US. If you had been following the news at all recently you would have been aware of this.
I think it's inappropriate for you to be lecturing the whole of "America" about the wrongness of this planned action by a handful of extremists. They do not represent "America" (thank goodness!). They represent themselves.



I have been definitely following the story. If you think by discussing here, I am 'lecturing the whole of "America"', is a pretty amusing comment to make.
You pretend to be offended.

Although, i apologise for inadvertently sounding like wise. But to suggest implicitly that one cannot use the word "America" in a title is stretching the idea a bit too far. By invoking or using the word America, of which you or any one else has no patent rights upon, I very obviously did not mean "AMERICANS" nor did it mean 'all AMERICANS'. I only used the word to focus attention of the region where a present issue is taking place. Why do you assume so much? I am sure you are living in interesting times.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 11:18 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
No, I wasn't "pretending" to be offended at all.
I was responding to your words as I read & understood them.
By the way, there have been acts of overt religious intolerance in India (your example), too. As there probably have been in many other places on earth. I'm not condoning or excusing any of them, just saying ....
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 11:19 am
@msolga,
Quote:
''That led us to 'International Burn a Koran Day' to honour those who were murdered at that time,'' said Pastor Jones. ''And to put a real clear message out to Islam that we will not tolerate, we do not want them trying to push their agenda on us, in other words, Sharia law.''

Later, he qualified his remarks, saying they were not directed towards moderate Muslims. ''We are not hateful toward Muslims. We are not aiming this at Muslims, we are aiming this at Sharia.''


I wonder how he feels about the 10 Commandments hanging in public buildings or prayer in public schools?
0 Replies
 
Irishk
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:13 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Yes, I definitely would be, Irishk. Thanks.

(Now I'll just have to figure out how to access it. Wink )


Here you go...

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/295331-1
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:26 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:

First there is a sustained opposition to a Mosque - to be build near WTC land - a distance of couple of hundred meters away, now we get a church leader who wants to burn a holy book.

Should the first amendment need a serious relook?

I don't see why. The Cordoba Foundation has a First-Amendment right to build a Muslim community center in buildings it has owned or rented, whether New Yorkers like it or not. Pastor Terry Jones has the First-Amendment right to purchase a copy of the Quran and burn it, whether Muslims and more tender-hearted Christians like it or not. That's how free societies work. What's there to change?

Jackofalltrades phil wrote:
How will America cope with such situations primarily motivated by religious sentimentsand conservative values.

It will move on, and that'll be that.

Jackofalltrades phil wrote:
Also, a political issue that springs is whether inter religious competition, and intra faith community centres and churchs competiting to get attention? Is it direct marketing?

Yes, religions compete for the attention of potential believers. Yes, community centers tend to play out as direct marketing, though some are more discreet about it than others. So what? Where is the political issue that you say springs from this?
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:31 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:

First there is a sustained opposition to a Mosque - to be build near WTC land - a distance of couple of hundred meters away, now we get a church leader who wants to burn a holy book.

Should the first amendment need a serious relook? How will America cope with such situations primarily motivated by religious sentimentsand conservative values. I think, two freedoms are being challenged 1) the freedom for practising own religion, and 2) the freedom of speech and expression.

Also, a political issue that springs is whether inter religious competition, and intra faith community centres and churchs competiting to get attention? Is it direct marketing?

Please let us see it from a moral angle, and discuss the ethics of such political and religious posturing.
Need to get rid of the first amendment rights... People should have the right, but we see here a demonstration of institutional rights... Churches are corporations, and if corporation stand against the government in some of what the government does then great, if they are doing a public service, and can show it... If this church that wants to burn the Holy Qu'ran would do so in spite of deadly danger to our young soldiers, and in spite of the fact that many Christians still live in Muslim countries and are vulnerable then they are not just abusing their rights, but are being criminal...There is nothing conservative about their behavior...They have so long enjoyed rights that they have denied to the people that they want to step full time into the roll of tyrants...They are not conservative, but reactionary...
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:41 pm
@msolga,
Thanks for reminding me! I am acutely aware of that, which also gives me chronic intellectual depressions!
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:46 pm
@Thomas,
I appreciate your objective reasonings and opinions. Very precise in fact.

But are you serious, in the last part of your comments when you ask whether it is political or not. It is deeply political, thomas. Burning of a 'Holy' Book is deeply deeply political. Thanks.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 01:02 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:
But are you serious, in the last part of your comments when you ask whether it is political or not. It is deeply political, thomas. Burning of a 'Holy' Book is deeply deeply political. Thanks.

I don't see how. "Political" means "of or relating to government, a government, or the conduct of government" (Mirriam-Webster). The US- and Florida governments are neither supporting nor impeding the Quran-burnings. The pastor isn't attempting to change the conduct of any American governments, federal, state, or local. So in what sense would the Quran-burnings relate to any governments, or to their conduct?
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 01:07 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

I understand that the instigators of this Koran burning event are in fact a tiny "church", or religious group. With something like 50 members.
There has been widespread public condemnation of this intended book burning by prominent religious & political leaders in the US. If you had been following the news at all recently you would have been aware of this.
I think it's inappropriate for you to be lecturing the whole of "America" about the wrongness of this planned action by a handful of extremists. They do not represent "America" (thank goodness!). They represent themselves.
In Islam the actual physical book is understood to be sacred, so burning one is a particularly pee-head thing to do. Frequently, a handful of lunatics get the attention and we forget all the earnestly good hearted people out there.
0 Replies
 
 

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