10
   

Ethical values in Religious & Modern America?

 
 
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:24 am
First there is a sustained opposition to a Mosque - to be build near WTC land - a distance of couple of hundred meters away, now we get a church leader who wants to burn a holy book.

Should the first amendment need a serious relook? How will America cope with such situations primarily motivated by religious sentimentsand conservative values. I think, two freedoms are being challenged 1) the freedom for practising own religion, and 2) the freedom of speech and expression.

Also, a political issue that springs is whether inter religious competition, and intra faith community centres and churchs competiting to get attention? Is it direct marketing?

Please let us see it from a moral angle, and discuss the ethics of such political and religious posturing.
 
HexHammer
 
  0  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 12:53 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
That mosque is a blatant stab in the eye of the western world, Imo such great insult shoulnd't be justifyed by abuseing the law.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 01:38 am
@HexHammer,
How does it abuse the law?
HexHammer
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 02:11 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:

How does it abuse the law?
By law they can practise their religion in any way they see fit, as long as it doesn't break the law, but building a mosque on the 9/11 site is abuseing the law ..Imo.
roger
 
  4  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 02:28 am
@HexHammer,
I don't see how the law can be followed and abused at the same time. Same goes for burning any kind of religious books, so long as they own the books, of course. The law doesn't compel good taste and manners, and it shouldn't.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 02:39 am
@HexHammer,
Whats the legal definition of 'site'?
0 Replies
 
Razzleg
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 03:03 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:

First there is a sustained opposition to a Mosque - to be build near WTC land - a distance of couple of hundred meters away, now we get a church leader who wants to burn a holy book.

Should the first amendment need a serious relook? How will America cope with such situations primarily motivated by religious sentimentsand conservative values. I think, two freedoms are being challenged 1) the freedom for practising own religion, and 2) the freedom of speech and expression.

Also, a political issue that springs is whether inter religious competition, and intra faith community centres and churchs competiting to get attention? Is it direct marketing?

Please let us see it from a moral angle, and discuss the ethics of such political and religious posturing.


First, a long justificatory tirade to justify a minor statement of opinion:

American conservatives have a point. Unfortunately, it is not the point they want to make. Relatively recently, a guy named Bill Bishop wrote a book called The Big Sort. When i read it, my reaction, in a way similar to many other US liberals, was "well, duh!" The point the author made was that, as a response to the relative economic freedom that modern Americans experience, they have begun to isolate themselves in political communities of like-minded individuals. Therefore, right-wingers tend to surround themselves with right-wingers, and vice versa.

A trend that Bishop might not have properly acknowledged is that certain socio-economical groups might have an incentive, that is to say an investment in political groups. What i am saying is that rural people, and poor, rural communities, tend to sympathize with "conservatism", while slightly more socially affluent, but still financially poor, urban communities tend to sympathize with "liberalism". While I am not inclined to go into the more complicated reasons that each of these groups, their contrasts and similarities, exist; i am willing to speculate as to why each perceives itself to be a minority: conservatives perceive themselves to be the power minority, despite being the numerical majority, because their small communities are dwarfed by larger urban liberal-enclaves and separated by geographical disatnce, and by the fact that their communities do not communicate well. Liberals, on the other hand, perceive themselves to be the numerical minority, because they are such, despite their higher concentration in urban settings (thus their high media profile and increased political impact). Thus, in a certain way, populist right-wing media blitzes are guaranteed to succeed, even those that breach their own principles.

Should conservative religio-political groups act in a way that impinges upon religious rights? Logically and morally: No. Successfully: Yes. At the same time, the condemnation that rains down on them is equally justified, given that their behavior contradicts the basic agreement that includes their justification in US society: the Constitution.

You'd think that an obvious symbolic agreement with Nazism would be enough to disqualify book-burning ad infinitum. Ignorance is a surprisingly powerful tool for the repetition of atrocity.

To express my final opinion, ethically speaking, the Quaran burning is shameful, to say the least.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 03:06 am
@roger,
roger wrote:

I don't see how the law can be followed and abused at the same time. Same goes for burning any kind of religious books, so long as they own the books, of course. The law doesn't compel good taste and manners, and it shouldn't.
Then you need more experience in lawsuits, in Denmark we laugh at the USA court system, it's filled with overzealous lawyers and pitiful civilians who wanna sue eachother for insignificant things.

We laugh at:
- on paper coffe jugs are written "hot coffee".
- manuals have printed on each page "this page can't be eaten".
- puddle in microwave oven, owner of dog got an unimaginable huge compensation

..all above cases are an abuse of the system, but apparently legal matters, which shouldn't be legal.
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 03:18 am
@HexHammer,
So, you're saying that just because something is legal doesn't mean it should be done? I agree.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 03:20 am
@Razzleg,
I agree with your opinion as well, Razz. Shameful. Not illegal, but shameful.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 04:44 am
@HexHammer,
Quote:
in Denmark we laugh at the USA court system, it's filled with overzealous lawyers and pitiful civilians who wanna sue eachother for insignificant things
Thats cauase you dont understand that, in the means test for protecting all rights, there are always new ways to test the outcomes based upon new information, technology, or socieies progression through time.
Id rather our way, cause I dont want my own rights placed on a list of verbotens.
We agree that "we make it up as we go along" but so what? Is your system superior or just stuffy?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 05:20 am
@farmerman,
Our system isn't perfect by far, nor are any system, there are always faulty things when humans are involved, however we does not reward greed and selfish gain non the less we still think the USA court system is absurd.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 05:35 am
@HexHammer,
do you speak for all of Denmark or just the rural contingent?
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 05:43 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

do you speak for all of Denmark or just the rural contingent?
By saying Denmark it is understood it's excluded Greenland and what else of strange things we have.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 05:44 am
@HexHammer,
Of course. In Greenland they still practice primogeniture
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 06:07 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Of course. In Greenland they still practice primogeniture
I find your basis of comparison very poor, USA pose as the policeman of the world, tyrranizing states which does not agree with their politics and general view of the world, just take France whom objected to Bush invading Iraq, and in general how Bush whined and got his illegal war going on, Greenland has no such power.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 06:20 am
@Razzleg,
Razzleg wrote:


Quote:
First, a long justificatory tirade to justify a minor statement of opinion:

Therefore, right-wingers tend to surround themselves with right-wingers, and vice versa.


Thats group psychology, no doubt.

Quote:
While I am not inclined to go into the more complicated reasons that each of these groups, their contrasts and similarities, exist; i am willing to speculate as to why each perceives itself to be a minority: conservatives perceive themselves to be the power minority, despite being the numerical majority, because their small communities are dwarfed by larger urban liberal-enclaves and separated by geographical disatnce, and by the fact that their communities do not communicate well. Liberals, on the other hand, perceive themselves to be the numerical minority, because they are such, despite their higher concentration in urban settings (thus their high media profile and increased political impact). Thus, in a certain way, populist right-wing media blitzes are guaranteed to succeed, even those that breach their own principles.


Okay, you are broadly correct..... you have just described the scene or conditions. But how does it matter, on what position a group should take on a given data or issue. It can't be just a desire. It has to be within legal prescriptions, ethical and moral principles, constitutional provisions and interests of the society.

The problem i see, and you may have perhaps hinted at, is the manner in which each group thinks whats right to a given society.

Quote:
Should conservative religio-political groups act in a way that impinges upon religious rights? Logically and morally: No. Successfully: Yes. At the same time, the condemnation that rains down on them is equally justified, given that their behavior contradicts the basic agreement that includes their justification in US society: the Constitution.


Thats kind of a mixed opinion. It does not suggest a position.

Quote:
Ignorance is a surprisingly powerful tool for the repetition of atrocity.


This is a splendid statement

Quote:
To express my final opinion, ethically speaking, the Quaran burning is shameful, to say the least.


I agree.
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 08:44 am
Both acts are protected by the constitution but it does not follow that both acts are comparable. One group wants to build a religious building and the other group wants to burn religious books. Wasn't there a fellow who burned books before? We as Americans are getting a terrible deserved intolerant name around the world.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:35 am
@revelette,
Who is comparing? Both are being challenged is what was said.
America should learn from India's experience in this field. Burning sacred books, or for that matter of any kind cannot and does not solve the problem.

I think and strongly suspect, that these acts are motivated by politics and appeasement of votes. It is not purely religious backlash or venting off ones ire.

Planning a retrograde act of burning a scripture 6 months or 3 months ahead is just not done. This is surely to accummulate as much publicity as possible, and at the end of the day, no such thing may happen.

Additionally, burning of a so called 'Holy book' cannot be considered a right under the freedom of speech and expression. The Koran or Quran cannot be merely seen as a book. If the lawyers tries to do that, as the American judicial system has been greatly strectched in every possible meaning and interpretation to the extent of making terms look elastic and ambiguous, it would be a real travesty and targedy of both Justice and Truth.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Sep, 2010 09:54 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Quote:
America should learn from India's experience in this field. Burning sacred books, or for that matter of any kind cannot and does not solve the problem.

I think and strongly suspect, that these acts are motivated by politics and appeasement of votes. It is not purely religious backlash or venting off ones ire.


I understand that the instigators of this Koran burning event are in fact a tiny "church", or religious group. With something like 50 members.
There has been widespread public condemnation of this intended book burning by prominent religious & political leaders in the US. If you had been following the news at all recently you would have been aware of this.
I think it's inappropriate for you to be lecturing the whole of "America" about the wrongness of this planned action by a handful of extremists. They do not represent "America" (thank goodness!). They represent themselves.
 

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