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Ethical values in Religious & Modern America?

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 11:56 am
@Thomas,
Could that be in the sense that denying "God" is denying BEING, Ontological Reality ? Denying life itself in a sense ? The punishment would be isolation, turn into an outcast...a natural punishment !

I am almost certain that such would be the answer of a wise Theologian...or a Meta physicist... one can agree with such interpretation without taking it literally, although these are indeed dangerous words in the hands of the people...
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:07 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
I find myself worrying for vulnerable minorities in a situation where it sounds like anyone can say pretty much whatever they choose with total immunity.

Not total impunity. US constitutional caselaw draws q line between expressing your religious opinion and intimidating people. In particular, in the case of Virginia v. Black, the Supreme Court held that states may prohibit the burning of crosses with the intent to intimidate. Background: If you lived in the American South 50 years ago, and you looked out your window, the last thing you wanted to see was a burning cross in your front yard. It meant that you were next on the Ku Klux Klan's list for a severe beating, perhaps even a killing. To criminalize such intimidation is consistent with the freedom of speech.

In my opinion, this is a sensible place to draw the line. Although I differ with Pastor Jones on matters of style, I agree with him that the Quran is a piece of fiction, and that it's full of vile, inhumane nonsense. (Unlike Jones, I think the same of the Bible.) It strikes me as eminently reasonable that I should have a right to express this opinion, in robust terms if necessary, even though I don't have the right to threaten or intimidate Muslims or Christians.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:10 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
Could that be in the sense that denying "God" is denying BEING, Ontological Reality ? Denying life itself in a sense ? The punishment would be isolation, turn into an outcast...a natural punishment !

I cannot answer your question, or comment on the assertion you append to it, because neither is intelligible to me. Being, ontological reality, and life itself either exist or they don't. Whether I deny them or not makes no difference to them---or to me, for that matter.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:14 pm
The basic standard was set by Oliver Wendel Holmes in 1919. He held that speech may be curtailed or prohibited in any situation in which there were a "clear and present danger" in a ruling on a call by a socialist to resist the draft in the First World War. The entire passage in Holmes' opinion was: "The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that the United States Congress has a right to prevent."

This has since been modified by a case concerning the Ku Klux Klan in the 1960s (i don't recall the name of the case) which refined the standard to any speech which would provoke "an imminent lawless action."
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:16 pm
@Thomas,
Oh, so you imply that denying the constituents of Life, (if one reads the text in that sense), denying the very nature to which you are part with, denying your own process of becoming, of being...has no consequence ? Is not intelligible ?

...well, maybe not to you...

PS - My concept of "God" is a very natural one...WHAT IS !
Can you tell the difference between an Intellectual and a bookkeeper ?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:25 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
PS - My concept of "God" is a very natural one...WHAT IS !

Good for you! Just one problem: your concept of "God" is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. Since this is about a Christian pastor attacking the Quran, the relevant concept of "God" is that of the Bible and of the Quran. And in both books, "God" is a fictitious figure of questionable ethics, weak mental stability, and astounding superpowers. How is your concept of "God" relevant to what Pastor Jones thinks of the Quran?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:28 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
This has since been modified by a case concerning the Ku Klux Klan in the 1960s (i don't recall the name of the case) which refined the standard to any speech which would provoke "an imminent lawless action."

I think you mean Brandenburg v. Ohio.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:29 pm
@Thomas,
Thanks, Boss. I was too lazy to go look it up.
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:30 pm
@Thomas,
1 - Is there an exclusive obligation to take such books in a specific context ? namely the most vulgar, possibly common sense, people actually give them ?
Does that turn the book of scope to any other approach ? Are you alright ?

2 - Where did I addressed the issue with the pastor ? I addressed your remark.

Everyone can do whatever they want in private...after all is a book not a person...of course such attitude, if public, is a stand, a provocation...and not a very bright one...
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:34 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:
1 - Is there an exclusive obligation to take such books in a specific context ?

"Obligation" is a strong word. But yes, when responding to a thread dedicated to a specific issue, it is courteous to take the relevant books in that issue's context.

Fil Albuquerque wrote:
2 - Where did I addressed the issue with the pastor ? I addressed your remark.

You didn't. That's the problem.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:38 pm
@Fido,
Your take on the link between morality and freedom is well understood. Ethics in religion is of primary value. What is religion without Ethics. This pastor like many pastors of the Evangelical, Baptists and various other protestant groups have made it a business out of prosylitising people. The commerce of religion is now in the open. It is showing its ugly face. The catholics and islamists did it through force and cohersion in the middle ages. Today, its is through communication tools and techniques. They are all immoral.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:43 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Perhaps you want to do some more research on this. According to both the Bible and the Quran, God has vile and viscious things in store for nonbelievers. If you believe that hatred of nonbelievers---or at least murder of nonbelievers---has no part in worshiping God, both the Bible and the Quran disagree with you.

To get yourself into the mood, you might want to try this God vs. Allah Quiz at LandoverBaptist.com. (The correct answers are outragous, but the authors quote the verses to back them up in the resolution.)


Is this not your writing, or shall I say, your interpretation on what the Bible or Quran suggests ? Do we all have to be literal in our understanding of such myth books ? Because myth books can teach even if through Myths...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:50 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
I am an Atheist in common sense terms speaking...but what you said is very well brought up !

This is a problem of public domain and Ethics in the first place...Religion is dust into the eyes of the people...this has nothing to do with Religion and all to do with respect for the majorities belief !

Freedom to act comes of as second instance considering the dangers implied.
Be that this subject in particular or any other who brings up such "heat"...
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:53 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades phil wrote:
The commerce of religion is now in the open. It is showing its ugly face. The catholics and islamists did it through force and cohersion in the middle ages. Today, its is through communication tools and techniques. They are all immoral.

Why? Why shouldn't there be commerce of religion? How is commerce of religion morally different from commerce in used cars?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:55 pm
You can put more trust in used car dealers than in preachers . . .
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Sep, 2010 12:59 pm
@Thomas,
The problem is not in the commerce itself but in selling the wrong bargain...or to put it in more clear terms, if you want to buy a Bus I sell you a bike instead...that is the problem !
0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 07:17 am
@Thomas,
...
Quote:
which is the choice of the politicians who make it political, not Pastor Jones's. But since he blew it off, the point is moot now.


Again, you miss the point. I'll try again although the fault might be with me.

Unlike the Mosque issue in NY, this is not a political or politician driven issue.
Muslims consider their book to be from God and any damage to it or words concerning to deeply offensive. We are either at war with extremist Muslims or trying to form alliances with the more moderate or persuadable Muslims. The Quran burning put a spoke in wheel of both endeavors.

Luckily he blew it off like you said.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 12:02 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Jackofalltrades phil wrote:
The commerce of religion is now in the open. It is showing its ugly face. The catholics and islamists did it through force and cohersion in the middle ages. Today, its is through communication tools and techniques. They are all immoral.

Why? Why shouldn't there be commerce of religion? How is commerce of religion morally different from commerce in used cars?


If by 'commerce' we mean the activity of buying and selling, than such buying and selling of faiths will inevitably lead to competition. Thats whats happenning today. Al Qaeda, Taliban and many religiously motivated groups are trying to sell their religion. Competition leads to commercialisation. Whether one like it or not, human beings all are selfish beings. They will do whatever it takes to secure their self interest. But when this self interest (which is understandable in groups) combines with individual selfishness or ego, than it masquerades as a do-gooders cause or the cause of God or martyrship. Competition and commercialism of religious belief, as a result of commercial mind-set is contradictary to the actual goals of Religion - which is missing in all such discussions.

Your comparison with used cars is quite inapropriate. You sound like a lawyer who wants to connect any which logic that comes up in mind just to save the client, the day and his fees.

ps: would you agree, if I rephrase it with 'commerce in religion', though not much of a differenec, still I thought it is better this way and needs correction.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 12:07 pm
@revelette,
revelette wrote:

...
Quote:
which is the choice of the politicians who make it political, not Pastor Jones's. But since he blew it off, the point is moot now.


Again, you miss the point. I'll try again although the fault might be with me.

Unlike the Mosque issue in NY, this is not a political or politician driven issue.
Muslims consider their book to be from God and any damage to it or words concerning to deeply offensive. We are either at war with extremist Muslims or trying to form alliances with the more moderate or persuadable Muslims. The Quran burning put a spoke in wheel of both endeavors.

Luckily he blew it off like you said.


What you say is true, and we is the West; Christians if you will, do not understand the commitment and sacrifice required of a Muslim, and the more one sacrifices for a relationship the more investment of self they have made in it and the less inclined they are to simply walk away... This is not just a rag, or so much paper that can be possessed as one would possess themselves of a piece of the earth... To begin to understand the religion is to understand how great the effect of Islam has been on humanity, and its contribution to western civilizatation, and to what extent that book we feel can be possessed actually possesses them and commands their thoughts...If the object of religion is to thank God and Worship God and commit ones self anew to God; then what is the point of that clown reverend in giving offense to so many in such an easily avoidable fashion??? The lands of Islam are not noted for their publishing houses... That book, the Holy Qu'ran is always a best seller... It is a treasure in my own house, like the Bible; and not because I believe; but because I believe any excuse people can grasp for showing mercy and understanding for others is a human treasure...If those people do not read the Holy Qu'ran and devote themselves to peace, then they will read our books and turn our own arts against us... Does not everyone prefer the former to the later???
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Sep, 2010 12:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

This is a problem of public domain and Ethics in the first place...Religion is dust into the eyes of the people...this has nothing to do with Religion and all to do with respect for the majorities belief !


Majorities hegemony and assertion is an assault on an individuals freedom. Thats true, but here more than majorityism it is the believer's psychology which i see as a primary problem.
The idea that one's own belief system is the truthful version, and the rest are myths, lies and fiction; and so all my neighbours should also follow suit is hurting humanities cause.

This kind of a mentality is seen in an accentuated form mostly in the Abrahamic religions.
This one upmanship is bringing us on the brink of turmoil and chaos. Mahatma Gandhi had said that an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.

As you hinted at, we seems to be blinded with descriptive religion for the sake of it, when in fact the prescription of religion no one seems to care about.
 

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