Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

A 78% majority gets its way no matter what you think that constitution means, as this majority can rewrite the Constitution if you and your minority keep bitching and whining and thus demand that the majority goes to this extreme to shut you up.

That is exactly what we need!! We need a constitutional amendment banning this community center and all other structures like it in perpetuity so that our national and state legislators can vote on it. I'm interested to know if 78% of people would write off some of their rights to ensure that this doesn't get built.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

mysteryman wrote:

Do you not think that some people could be opposed for other legitimate reasons?

Can't think of any although I suppose it is possible. Maybe they're worried it would disrupt business at the OTB parlor there? Stop people from going to the strip clubs? I suppose getting rid of a vacant warehouse might take housing away from the homeless if they are lodging there. If I'm the property owner, I'm pretty pissed off about people preventing me from turning a buck on my property. Where are all the laissez faire, business types complaining about these people attempting to restrict the owner's use of his land?

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

Quote:

Do you not think that some people could be opposed for other legitimate reasons?

What legitimate reason could there be that does not involve collective guilt of a group or religion for the actions of a few?

1 Reply

@revelette,

Since I have already stated that I support the mosque being built, I dont really have an answer.
However, its the fact that CI and others seem to be trying to lump everyone that opposes this mosque, for any reason, as being racist and bigots that bothers me.

Im sure not everyone that opposes it is a bigot or a racist.

3 Replies

@engineer,

I'm not about to write-off my rights.

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

Quote:

Im sure not everyone that opposes it is a bigot or a racist.

What reason for opposing it doesn't involve the fact that they are Muslims?

When it gets boiled down to the reality of it, there isn't any other reason that makes sense. They may not see themselves as bigots. They could be opposing it out of some sense of group think but that group think is based on bigotry.

1 Reply

@mysteryman,

Quote:

Im sure not everyone that opposes it is a bigot or a racist.

I agree. I think that there are a number of reasons that people don't want the mosque built so near Ground Zero. Most have nothing to do with bigotry or racism.

Let's look at this another way. People who lump everyone who is against the mosque as bigots and racists, IMO, are guilty of PREJUDICE. We are all individuals, and have various reasons for our stand on the subject.

No issue is perceived the same way by every individual. (Remember the story about the blind men and the elephant?)

Quote:

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL.

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

6 Replies

@Phoenix32890,

Then why is nobody, including you, giving a reason?

0 Replies

@Phoenix32890,

Quote:

I agree. I think that there are a number of reasons that people don't want the mosque built so near Ground Zero. Most have nothing to do with bigotry or racism.

Sure.. so what is your reason?
Other than blaming all Muslims for 9/11?

0 Replies

@mysteryman,

Quote:

Im sure not everyone that opposes it is a bigot or a racist.

perhaps, however if you are sure then you must know of other reasons other than collective guilt of all muslims for the actions of a few.

2 Replies

I have a number of reasons, none having to do with collective guilt. I will not discuss them, because I am not interested in having my views torn apart by the "politically correct" crowd. I have no reason to defend myself. And....I refuse to be baited!

2 Replies

@revelette,

She gave her reasons in her first couple of posts in this thread that she started.

She's letting her paranoia run rampant about the Mosque, and equates its building with an army planting its flag on a battlefield after they've won a battle. She's suspecting the mosque builders of being complicit with the terrorists who brought down the WTC.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

That's pretty good, Infra Blue. And there are a few more.

In the words of Joseph Heller, the author of "Catch 22"

Quote:

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you"

1 Reply

@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

Quote:
Im sure not everyone that opposes it is a bigot or a racist.

I agree. I think that there are a number of reasons that people don't want the mosque built so near Ground Zero. Most have nothing to do with bigotry or racism.

Let's look at this another way. People who lump everyone who is against the mosque as bigots and racists, IMO, are guilty of PREJUDICE. We are all individuals, and have various reasons for our stand on the subject.

No issue is perceived the same way by every individual. (Remember the story about the blind men and the elephant?)

The problem is, Phoenix, that nobody expects people to come out and say, "I'm against this because I'm bigoted towards Muslims." People don't really do that very often, not even to themselves inside their heads.

Instead, they make up OTHER reasons for why they are against it, and try and pass those off as the real reasons. But when those positions are examined, they don't stand up, logically. Time and time again. The reasons you gave earlier don't stand up logically and neither do the ones that anyone else in this thread who is against it.

At the end of the day, all of the fake justifications boil down to a thin veneer to cover up bigotry and fear. That's it.

Your attempt to call others out as 'prejudiced,' because they don't accept your illogical and likely bigoted stance, is a common tactic Republicans and Conservatives like to use, to try and make themselves out as the victim in cases like this. I don't have anything against you personally, but you haven't displayed a single thing - not one thing! - in this thread that would lead anyone to believe that you are operating out of anything but fear, bigotry or racism in your opposition to this mosque.

I mean, comments like this:

Quote:

Intrepid- Now I have, and that clip exactly mirrored my "paranoia". When I heard about the mosque, my first thoughts were how an army plants its flag on a battlefield after they have won a battle.

... make it perfectly clear that you ARE lumping people together in your head. You DO see it as a conflict between civilizations, and even though these people have nothing to do with 9/11 or any battle whatsoever, that's the association that you have. What the hell do you expect us to think or say when we see crap like that?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Phoenix32890,

Do you have some reason to suspect that those wanting to build a mosque to have more space to worship are after you or part of a larger cell to attack this country or were part of the attack on 9/11? If all the answers are no or you can't prove it either way, then it is logical to assume you are using collective guilt to blame all people of a religion in this Muslims for the actions of others which in definition is prejudice.

Quote:

Definition of PREJUDICE
1: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

2a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion

(2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

I was looking at your post with great interest, until the last sentence. I am not fond of pissing matches.

I had promised myself pages ago, that I would no longer be involved in this thread, but my "mouth" got the best of me. No more.

O.K., so you think that I am a bigot. That is your prerogative. Maybe we will have the opportunity to discuss this some years from now. I really hope that you were right, and I was paranoid,.........................but time will tell.

2 Replies

@Phoenix32890,

Phoenix32890 wrote:

I was looking at your post with great interest, until the last sentence. I am not fond of pissing matches.

I had promised myself pages ago, that I would no longer be involved in this thread, but my "mouth" got the best of me. No more.

O.K., so you think that I am a bigot. That is your prerogative. Maybe we will have the opportunity to discuss this some years from now. I really hope that you were right, and I was paranoid,.........................but time will tell.

I think that you are acting in a bigoted manner by opposing this. I base this entirely on your comments here, all of which seem to stem from beliefs about Muslims which could logically be categorized as Bigoted. Does this mean that you are inherently a Bigot? Not necessarily. Like I said earlier, people don't even want to admit to themselves what they really think or feel in cases like this.

If you want to bow out of the conversation, because you don't want to get into an argument I understand. But you should know that this is the impression that you are giving people when you make comments like the ones you have made. When you refuse to engage people in discussion to support your comments, it doesn't convince anyone that you AREN'T a bigot, that's for sure...

I will ask you the same as I do everyone else, and you can answer or not: what is your reason for opposing this that doesn't lump all Muslims together? That isn't based on fear? That doesn't posit a clash of civilizations between us and them?

You should be able to describe it in one or two sentences, a pittance of your time; it takes longer to type and tell us that you already explained it than it does just to do so again...

Or, if you just don't care what we think, don't say anything at all. But I think that it's pretty clear that the side you support has lost the day on this issue in this thread, because not a single one of your arguments (by which I mean the anti-Muslim arguments here) stands up to logical examination. Not in the slightest.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@revelette,

revelette wrote:

Quote:
Im sure not everyone that opposes it is a bigot or a racist.

perhaps, however if you are sure then you must know of other reasons other than collective guilt of all muslims for the actions of a few.

I do not think many people blame all Muslims for the actions of a few. However, in my opinion, if there are a "few" that are radicalized, within the Muslim faith, to do acts of terrorism, then how do the "western nations" address terrorism that can use mosques as meeting places of radicalized Muslims?

Like when city ordinances were passed that people should not congregate on street corners, since some juvenile delinquents may have had a penchant to meet/hang out on street corners before they did whatever juvenile delinquents did that was against the law. Now, all young people that wanted to stand on a corner were not juvenile delinquents. Some might have just wanted to watch people go by? However, the many did have their right to stand on a street corner curtailed, due to the actions of a few. And, it made sense, since the common good was protected.

Perhaps, in the minds of some, a mosque functions beyond a house of worship, in an age when radicalized Islam is perceived by some as being in some struggle against the west (aka, jihad). Perhaps, this struggle against the west is a reality, and not the plot of some "B" grade movie? Hmmm? Was 9/11 just a dream?

By the way, in the 1950's when hanging out on street corners became unlawful in some locales, the respective group of juvenile delinquents did consider specific street corners to be their "turf," and took pride in perceived ownership of that street corner. So, in dealing with radicalized Islam that denigrates women's rights, and some of the males seem to have a pack mentality like middle-school boys, it is not inconceivable that a specific mosque, may in their eyes (only) function like a "trophy street-corner" representing (to them) the victory over some specific turf won?

The analogy might be correct, since in my opinion, much of the adversarial interaction between Christian/Hindu/Jew and radicalized Islam, around the world, seems to just be based on radicalized Islam having the proverbial "turf war" of inner city youth. Maybe the mosque at Ground Zero should better become a Moslem Head Start Center, so the next generation of Muslims in NYC not be so alienated from the surrounding dominant cultures?

I know, I know. The retorts of posters will point out that the anti-mosque folks are the "alienated ones." Alienated perhaps, but not radicalized. I have never heard of New Yorkers wanting to "struggle" against the Moslem world. There is not even a term in Christianity, I believe, for a struggle against Islam. And, do not say "Crusade," since something that happened 1,000 years ago, is not a valid EXCUSE for 9/11.

2 Replies

@Intrepid,

I was thinking the same thing as I typed my response, but considered the source and posted anywhos.

0 Replies

@parados,

Amen! Some people have the ability to get to the knub of such bigotry. Other's are blind to it.

0 Replies

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know