@Foofie,
The question I actually posed, Foofie, was whether the German plan to turn Eastern Europe into a big plantation to feed the Fatherland, populated by ethnic Germans was a bad thing.
@JTT,
JTT wrote:
The question I actually posed, Foofie, was whether the German plan to turn Eastern Europe into a big plantation to feed the Fatherland, populated by ethnic Germans was a bad thing.
Yes it was a bad thing, since it would be predicated on usurping Russian land. Note that the U.S. was the victor in WWII, and we did not expand the U.S. by any other nation's land. Our not vanquishing our enemies, like Germany would have, is a very good thing about the U.S. You should put that in your file regarding the U.S.
@Foofie,
Quote:Yes it was a bad thing, since it would be predicated on usurping Russian land. Note that the U.S. was the victor in WWII, and we did not expand the U.S. by any other nation's land. Our not vanquishing our enemies, like Germany would have, is a very good thing about the U.S. You should put that in your file regarding the U.S.
How might that plan, one that didn't come to fruition, compare to or differ from the plan that did come to fruition, ie. to vanquish Native Americans to turn American into a big plantation to feed the Fatherland, populated by Americans?
Not to mention usurping Mexican land.
As an added note, remember that there were some other countries involved in WWII besides the US.
I support the mosque though I don't really support any religion per se, just basic religious freedom.
After 9/11 I began to gravitate toward agnosticism and now I am a fully practicing agnostic. I figure any open and free dialogue is good and if religions are going to congregate in lower Manhattan the more the merrier so any one faith does not seem to have a monopoly. Unity in diversity.
Religion is silly to me now and there are pros and cons to this mosque psychologically it is a win lose situation no matter how you look at it. We deny the mosque and we become intolerant we allow the mosque and we seem weak. I say allowing the mosque is the lesser of two evils. America has gotten our pound of flesh out of Saddam and we are still in Afghanistan (and other places globally) chasing terrorists into the hills. Perhaps it is time to start healing these wounds and seeking peace. This may be the way forward.
I believe the US Islamic people do cherish our laws over Sharia. Once people have tasted American freedom it is hard to go back. Time to stop letting Bin Laden and these terrorists dictate to what Islam is in America. Let's open a dialogue and let human love and compassion show us the way to religious tolerance.
America has the resolve and we can and will lead the rest of the world in liberty and freedom for all to partake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smw9QuH1xkA
Kinda weird here...
If someone offered me a copy of the gospel of John I would say, "No thanks, trying to quit..." I might even tell them that the Bible kills people...
I think it is kind of harassment to hand out biblical epistle tracks at a Muslim carnival but, to me, it still falls within the realm of what I would call freedom of religion, speech and the within the right to protest. Freedom of information.
Muslims can just walk by and say, "No thank you." Or throw them away once they take a look at it and figure out what it is. THIS IS AMERICA GOD DAMN IT. How far do Muslim sensitivities need to be stretched? Is this what we will be facing at ground zero? Cordoned off streets so regular people don't offend Muslims? 8 or so cops on tax payers money to detain 3 people handing out pamphlets on Jesus? Freedom is a two way street. Is this equality, one church getting special treatment? Is this the "dialogue" which the Imams CLAIM this worship center will be? And, what of the police shutting off the cameras? What of freedom of the press? And... why a Muslim carnival? Why not a black carnival, a Jewish carnival and German carnival? Would outsiders be treated the same at these types of events anyway? What of it being a public street?
I don't believe in God and I don't want ANY religion dictating what my freedoms are... And I especially don't agree with Sharia law just as I equally don't agree with old Testament Hebrew law either... What is freedom of religion without free laws of liberty? Also I think it is dirty politics and harassment for these "Christians" to pass out these pamphlets but does it not demonstrate a point? Would the Amish take someone handing out a simple pamphlet with such insult?
What guarantee do we have that this "fitness center slash mosque" is not just going to be a constant sore spot where more and more liberties are eroded away because of weird Muslim sensitivities and intolerance? Will it not also be a magnet for Muslim protest whenever it suites them to do so? Could this not then cripple an entire city downtown district?
If this carnival has a several block radius where CERTAIN people are not allowed near to pass out pieces to paper with writing on them.... then this mosque in NYC could technically have the same radius and then actually encompass ground zero...
What assurances by the imams do we have really? NONE WHATSOEVER... In theory I am for this mosque but practically I have my questions.
@RexRed,
The thing that's kinda weird, Rex, is the, correct me if I'm wrong, rapid about face you've made on religion and god. Weren't you, not all that long ago, a rabid bible puncher? Don't be offended by my choice of descriptions. They are only used to try to describe what I saw as your views on religion.
@JTT,
I was not rabid as a christian and never have been... Also an about face of almost two years ago is not that rapid... I have always been one to discuss God and not preach or push God. I may have quoted scriptures left and right but I let people decide what they want to make of them... Most of my biblical discourse has been what the Bible actually says versus what people think it says. Now that I don't believe what it means anymore it does to mean that I am still not aware of what is written there.
As for these religious Christians in Dearborn, I do not think they are up to any good. But I was not there... The main guy in the Christian group who was in Dearborn seems a bit argumentative and immature as a Christian.
I am not taking sides. I am just tossing this up for debate and further clarification.
I am not sure what is worse or better, a Muslim or a Muslim convert to Christianity...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9RIhIIfZCw
This is unsettling also, I am just curious what the pamphlet said? Was it calling for Jihad or just expressing some borderline radical opinions? Apparently when they tried to talk things over it became a screaming match... It appears that these so called "Christians" were attempting to incite a riot also. I think it was definitely right for the security to escort them out at that point. Is this though not a microcosm of what fair ground zero could become like? Is it probably not better to just build a secular fitness center there if it is going to be on such a large scale? It seems this mosque will become a magnet for other religions and fanatics too and will they be treated the same way as here? Were these Islamists passing out the pamphlets endorsing peace too? I want to know the answer to this... 2010 Islam in America... What of discourse promised by the Imam of this new Mosque proposed? They did not want to be filmed while talking... I wonder how much of the video the self proclaimed Christians cut to make themselves look good too?
This on a small scale will determine what something like this could be like in an urban environment. In some ways it seemed like it was the Christians here that were terrorizing the Arab fair... But there also seemed to be some hate that was being dealt back. Again, I would love to have read what the pamphlet said. The Koran is very insulting to Christians, Jews nonbelievers etc... I know I have tried to read some of it and I had to put it down it was so insulting and base.
So were the Islamists here passing out hateful literature? That is not known to me yet. I find much of the Bible as hateful too. I have also heard some very hateful things said by Christians and non Christians alike about Islam and "foreigners" in general... None of this hate is acceptable to me. THIS is why I have dropped ALL of this religious crap! Yes there is religious freedom but in practice is it worth it to throw gas on a fire?
As I said I don't believe in any God but I do believe in goodness, kindness and treating all people with COMPLETE HONESTY and love. I don't see this here. Something is rotten in the Denmark...
I am not taking a position yet here (other than I don't believe in gods anymore) I am just trying to figure this stuff out... My mind is tossed back and forth and all I can seem to do is toss the whole lot...
@RexRed,
What does a situation in Dearborne, Michigan have to do with New York City and the Mosque? What are you rambling about?
@revelette,
Quote:Moderate Muslims have condemned terrorism, it just don't get as much coverage and Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11
I believe I have acknowledged as much, but thanks for the links.
NYC mosque debate will shape American Islam
By RACHEL ZOLL, AP Religion Writer
Mon Aug 30, 12:07 am ET
NEW YORK – Adnan Zulfiqar, a graduate student, former U.S. Senate aide and American-born son of Pakistani immigrants, will soon give the first khutbah, or sermon, of the fall semester at the University of Pennsylvania. His topic has presented itself in the daily headlines and blog posts over the disputed mosque near ground zero.
What else could he choose, he says, after a summer remembered not for its reasoned debate, but for epithets, smears, even violence?
As he writes, Zulfiqar frets over the potential fallout and what he and other Muslim leaders can do about it. Will young Muslims conclude they are second-class citizens in the U.S. now and always?
"They're already struggling to balance, `I'm American, I'm Muslim,' and their ethnic heritage. It's very disconcerting," said Zulfiqar, 32, who worked for former U.S. Sen. Max Cleland, a Georgia Democrat, and now serves Penn's campus ministry. "A controversy like this can make them radical or become more conservative in how they look at things or how they fit into the American picture."
Whatever the outcome, the uproar over a planned Islamic center near the World Trade Center site is shaping up as a signal event in the story of American Islam.
Strong voices have emerged from outside the Muslim community. New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has been steadfast in his support for the project. Jon Stewart nightly mocks the bigotry that the protest unleashed.
"The sentiment, say, five years ago among many Muslims, especially among many young Muslims, was that, `We're in this all by ourselves,'" said Omer Mozaffar, a university lecturer in Chicago who leads Quran study groups as a buffer between young people and the extremist preachers on YouTube. `That has changed significantly. There have been a lot of people speaking out on behalf of Muslims."
Eboo Patel, an American Muslim leader and founder of Interfaith Youth Core, a Chicago nonprofit that promotes community service and religious pluralism, said Muslims are unfortunately experiencing what all immigrant groups endured in the U.S. before they were fully accepted as American. Brandeis University historian Jonathan D. Sarna has noted that Jews faced a similar backlash into the 1800s when they tried to build synagogues, which were once banned in New York.
Patel believes American Muslims are on the same difficult but inevitable path toward integration.
"I'm not saying this is going to be happy," Patel said. "But I'm extremely optimistic."
Yet, the overwhelming feeling is that the controversy has caused widespread damage that will linger for years.
American Muslim leaders say the furor has emboldened opposition groups to resist new mosques around the country, at a time when there aren't enough mosques or Islamic schools to serve the community.
Rhetoric from some politicians that lumps all Muslims with terrorists will depress the Muslim vote, analysts say.
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, a potential 2012 presidential candidate, said in opposing the Islamic center that, "America is experiencing an Islamist cultural-political offensive designed to undermine and destroy our civilization."
U.S. Muslims who have championed democracy and religious tolerance question what they've accomplished. If the "extremist" label can be hung on someone as apparently liberal as the imam at the center of the outcry, Feisal Abdul Rauf, then any Muslim could come under attack. Feisal supports women's rights, human rights and interfaith outreach.
"The joke is on moderate Muslims," said Muqtedar Khan, a University of Delaware political scientist and author of "American Muslims, Bridging Faith and Freedom." "What's the point if you're going to be treated the same way as a radical? If I get into trouble are they going to treat me like I'm a supporter of al-Qaeda?"
U.S. Muslims are themselves divided over the proposed mosque.
Feisal and his wife, Daisy Khan (no relation to Muqtedar Khan), want to build a 13-story, $100 million community center called Park51 two blocks from the World Trade Center site. It would be modeled on the YMCA or Jewish Community Center, with programming for the entire city, and would include a mosque.
Some Muslims felt from the start that the plan was misguided, given the wounds of the Sept. 11 attacks and widespread misunderstanding about Islam. Yet they felt compelled to defend the proposal when the discussion over religious freedom and cultural sensitivity turned ugly.
Days ago, a brick nearly smashed a window at the Madera Islamic Center in central California, where signs were left behind that read, "Wake up America, the enemy is here," and "No temple for the god of terrorism." This past week in New York, a Muslim cab driver had his face and throat slashed in a suspected hate crime.
The poisonous atmosphere comes at a still fragile time in the development of Muslim communal life.
Leaders have spent years trying to persuade Muslim immigrants to come out of their enclaves and fully embrace being American. The task became that much more difficult in the aftermath of 9/11. Many Muslims pulled back, convinced that if another terrorist attack occurs, the U.S. government will put them in internment camps, like the Japanese in World War II. Their American-born children, meanwhile, have felt rejected by their own country.
David Ramadan, a Muslim and vice chair of ethnic coalitions for Republican Party in Virginia, predicts that comments from political figures in both major parties will depress Muslim voting in years to come.
Ramadan and other Muslim Republicans have been pressing GOP leaders not to support a particular mosque, but to acknowledge that American Muslims have equal rights under the Constitution.
"Who wants to come into the fold of the Republican Party today, or even the fold of the Democratic Party?" Ramadan asked. "They just increased the number of independents in America."
@Phoenix32890,
There have been quite a few threads about Wilders on A2K - since a couple of years already.
And when you would hear (and see) him - I suppose, most would get a different opinion. (That only fortified my opinion about the extreme far right in Europe - we already have enough to deal with Neo-Nazis and other nationalistic extremists.)
@Walter Hinteler,
I had just looked back and was reading, or re-reading a 2004 thread. Eek!
@Phoenix32890,
Quote:We have to take the necessary action now to stop this Islamic stupidity from destroying the free world that we know.
Do you agree with what you posted, and what is your suggestion as to what this means and what action is necessary?
@Phoenix32890,
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Walter- I sat through most of Wilders' long speeches on YouTube, and he seems to be spot on with many of his views.
Well, your Dutch certainly is better than mine in that case. As is your knowledge about the situation in the Netherlands.
Sorry, didn't want to seem sapient here, but just thought that due to my frequent visits in The Netherlands and since I've seen and heard Wilders personally .... never mind.
Phoenix32890 wrote:
The reason that I had not heard of him on A2K, is that normally I tend to avoid a thread that causes a lot of anger and dissension, and I am not a rabid fan of Glenn Beck.
Well, it's International Politics, something USAmericans usually avoid ... especially, if it's Europe.