Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@Caroline,

Caroline wrote:

This has been a learning curve for me, to remember what is right and not to be side tracked into other issues. Thanks. ...I hope I don't do it again ..

Welcome from me as well - and thank you for this admirable sentiment.

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America was never known for it's subtlety or tact.

Thank you in particular for this example of tact - trying to put us at ease on the assumption we can't tell pronouns from verbs.

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Most muslims living in the west are peace loving and respect the whites.

Color-coding them would certainly do wonders for subtlety.

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....maybe it would be the decent thing to do would be to move it it 6 blocks away.

At least half the posters here have already noted the mosque is 2 blocks away, so in your view a total of 8 blocks would satisfy the objections? The Metropolitan Police didn't ask Moslems to stay 8 blocks away from Tube stations after the London subways were bombed - odd, that.

1 Reply

@High Seas,

Quote:

America was never known for it's subtlety or tact.

Apologies to firefly for not applying tact myself, what I meant was Americans have been known to go in guns blazing but I was inappropriate and I'm sorry for that.

Quote:

Most muslims living in the west are peace loving and respect the whites.

High Seas wrote:

Color-coding them would certainly do wonders for subtlety.

What's your point most asians do respect whites. Colour coding is used on forms, white, black etc

Quote:

....maybe it would be the decent thing to do would be to move it it 6 blocks away.

High Seas wrote:

At least half the posters here have already noted the mosque is 2 blocks away, so in your view a total of 8 blocks would satisfy the objections? The Metropolitan Police didn't ask Moslems to stay 8 blocks away from Tube stations after the London subways were bombed - odd, that.

What is your point?

2 Replies

@roger,

Quote:

The answer depends on what kind of impression they want to make, and how they want to be perceived. I have no doubt they know what that impression is.

Without the bigots telling lies about the building there would be no controversy.

Some of the lies told and repeated here -
"It will be built in the WTC site." "It's being built to show victory" "The builders have never repudiated terrorism"

1 Reply

@roger,

roger wrote:

Unless I missed a post, the whole Constitutional issue looked like a big straw man argument to me, as they clearly have a legal right to build their mosque/ymca, cultural center, or whatever in that location. The question is 'should they'.

My understanding is the opposite, their legal right to build is being questioned. The courts are being used to prevent them from building my asserting that this warehouse has "historical" value even though the historical commission that makes such judgments has ruled otherwise.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

For brevity I won't repeat the post - especially since the page just turned so it's easy to refer to the original.
1. The grammatical error was referred to, not your statement per se: you wrote "it's" in lieu of the correct "its"
2. Our color coding differs from yours - "asians" to us are primarily from the Far East, though the category includes "south asians", ie primarily peoples from the Indian subcontinent; peoples of Middle Eastern descent (including semitic) are counted as whites. Attempting to compare European color categories to those in the Americas only adds to confusion. Furthermore, slavery in Europe vanished with the Roman empire; in the Americas it did so much more recently so there's heightened sensitivity on the part of "whites" and "non-whites" (however defined) alike.
3. On the optimal number of distance from a past or potential target expressed in city blocks: there is no such number - neither in law nor in fact.

1 Reply

@parados,

parados wrote:

Quote:
The answer depends on what kind of impression they want to make, and how they want to be perceived. I have no doubt they know what that impression is.

Without the bigots telling lies about the building there would be no controversy.

Some of the lies told and repeated here -
"It will be built in the WTC site." "It's being built to show victory" "The builders have never repudiated terrorism"

wow that sounds like someone yelling fire in a crowded building, that's crazy

umm, does anyone else smell smoke Shocked

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Obama had to agree to it or else there would've been an uproar but he will lose thousands of votes-3000 people died, it's insensitive. No ones telling them not to build it but why there, out of all the places? We've got feelings, we all hurt, everyones got different opinions, your wrong, I'm right, it's about compromise, it's about having sensitivity towards those who died, people jumped out of burning buildings, imagine the people on the planes dying not being able to do nothing, phoning their loved ones saying I'm going to die see you in the next life. Children died, innocent people died who had nothing to do with it. Think about their hurt and pain. Stop shouting racist when people are hurt, they have that right, how dare anyone take that away from them. It has nothing to do with racism and peoples rights. They should build a remembrance. They must know it's going to upset people, it was awful.

1 Reply

@engineer,

engineer wrote:

My understanding is the opposite, their legal right to build is being questioned...

Your understanding is correct. The existing building originally housed the Burlington coat factory - a sweat shop of no historical value whatsoever, as the landmarks commission found. Now there's another legal effort to block new construction, based on the option of the lessee (the islamic group) to exercise its option to buy the part of the property it doesn't already own, necessary for demolishing the whole (formerly abandoned) building. A court is expected to rule whether the original option was flawed under contract law. The contract is identical to countless others so declaring it to be null and void would be difficult.

0 Replies

@Caroline,

Caroline wrote:

High Seas wrote:
Caroline wrote:

....maybe it would be the decent thing to do would be to move it it 6 blocks away.

At least half the posters here have already noted the mosque is 2 blocks away, so in your view a total of 8 blocks would satisfy the objections? The Metropolitan Police didn't ask Moslems to stay 8 blocks away from Tube stations after the London subways were bombed - odd, that.

What is your point?

The point is that the objections that have been raised on this thread, that the Iman is a jerk or traitor, that the funding is somehow nefarious, that putting Muslim YMCA somewhere would be insensitive to the feelings of people hurt by the WTC attacks are all just as valid if you put this facility six blocks away or sixty. If you give these reasons any validity, then there can be no Muslim facility in NY City at all. If it causes emotional pain near ground zero, how much more if it is in their neighborhood instead.

I think public perception of this project is definitely a fair topic for conversation, but using the courts to prevent it on a flimsy pretext is wrong. Even if this project were intended to be an in-your-face to Christians, that is still legal in the United States. Heck, South Carolina still flies the Confederate battle flag on the state capital grounds. I respect the right of the citizens of NY to legally protest all they want, but I don't respect them using the court system as a bludgeon against a minority.

2 Replies

@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

For brevity I won't repeat the post - especially since the page just turned so it's easy to refer to the original.
1. The grammatical error was referred to, not your statement per se: you wrote "it's" in lieu of the correct "its"
2. Our color coding differs from yours - "asians" to us are primarily from the Far East, though the category includes "south asians", ie primarily peoples from the Indian subcontinent; peoples of Middle Eastern descent (including semitic) are counted as whites. Attempting to compare European color categories to those in the Americas only adds to confusion. Furthermore, slavery in Europe vanished with the Roman empire; in the Americas it did so much more recently so there's heightened sensitivity on the part of "whites" and "non-whites" (however defined) alike.
3. On the optimal number of distance from a past or potential target expressed in city blocks: there is no such number - neither in law nor in fact.

1. Sorry but I'm tired, (pulled an all nighter). 2. We have white black and I think we got asians too. 3. I haven't the foggiest what you mean, sorry.

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@engineer,

So what are you saying build it outside the city, but that's not quite fair, it's got to be half and half. Why not build it 20 miles up the road where it's not so raw, NY is a huge place.

2 Replies

@Caroline,

Quote:

Obama had to agree to it or else there would've been an uproar but he will lose thousands of votes-3000 people died, it's insensitive. No ones telling them not to build it but why there, out of all the places? We've got feelings, we all hurt, everyones got different opinions, your wrong, I'm right, it's about compromise, it's about having sensitivity towards those who died, people jumped out of burning buildings, imagine the people on the planes dying not being able to do nothing, phoning their loved ones saying I'm going to die see you in the next life. Children died, innocent people died who had nothing to do with it. Think about their hurt and pain. Stop shouting racist when people are hurt, they have that right, how dare anyone take that away from them. It has nothing to do with racism and peoples rights. They should build a remembrance. They must know it's going to upset people, it was awful.

There were Muslims on the planes which crashed onto the buildings, there were Muslims were in the buildings, they were Muslims who died trying to save those who were in the buildings. They had loved ones left behind to grieve as well.

There Is Already a Mosque Less Than a Mile From Ground Zero

So the whole argument of being insensitive to those who had loved ones to die on 9/11 being the reason a mosque should not be built anywhere around the buildings being burned is without merit.

1 Reply

@revelette,

Okay.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

No, what I'm saying is that fact that it is two blocks away, not six really doesn't matter to those who are creating this controversy. They will not be happy until this project is banished from New York or preferably not built at all. The "two blocks from ground zero" is just an emotional jab to get those who would otherwise reject their arguments to give them a second look.

1 Reply

@engineer,

Why are they not happy until it's completely banished? Compromise.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

Because their arguments leave no room for compromise. Summary of key arguments:

- Families are distraught: OK, how is that going to change if you build this in a neighborhood where they live instead on the business district? The families are spread out all over NY, so I doubt you can find anyplace if your goal is not to step on anyone's toes. The project leaders need to build where there congregation is, not across town or state.
- The Iman is an ass: OK, well that's not going to change. Christian ministers who are asses don't change either.
- There are secret, anti-American forces funding and controlling the center: Kind of bogus, but if you believe this then ditto, not going to change.
- The building is a historical landmark: LOL

They've staked out a position where they can be aggrieved no matter what the project leaders offer.

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@Caroline,

NY is a huge place, so why should muslims have to go 20 miles to practice their religion?

Part of the reason for this prayer room is to allow people that work in the area to pray. Forcing them to travel 20 miles really defeats the purpose since 20 miles in NYC would probably take an hour or more to travel.

1 Reply

@parados,

I'm just saying that they could be a little more sensitive, compromise. They must no it upsets people.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

U r a damned liar F'ART, and u will be until I drive a plane or 2
into a tall Moslem edifice and another into a Moslem military H.Q.,
after murdering all of the flight deck officers, by surprize.

U r just motivated by your anti-Americanism (like Obama),
and therefore, u delight in favoring any of America 's enemies.

Save us all the waste of time Dave. Shoot me.

A
R
T

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@Caroline,

Let's compromise.
They won't build the mosque on the WTC site. There.. they compromised.

Now, what are you willing to give up?

1 Reply

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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