Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@High Seas,

Quote:

You mistake venue for content

Ah.. yes..

Well... no...
I guess I mistook the meanings of the words you used.
"a link to a peer reviewed paper" has no meaning at all as long as the author has published one elsewhere. Good to know that is your meaning HS.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

firefly wrote:
Rauf and Khan have every legal right to build their mosque. But the latest poll shows that 68% of NYers now oppose the building of the cultural center/mosque two blocks from Ground Zero. If Raul and Khan dig in their heels and refuse to re-locate, they will not serve their cause well. They will appear to have an in-your-face attitude when some greater understanding is called for. They should consider another location, at more of a distance from the WTC site. And not because they feel bullied or corerced, but because, if they really do want to build bridges of understanding, they realize the need to do that by their own example and actions, and not just through their words. By offering to relocate, they will be extending the hand of peace and healing.

I acknowledge that you have the right to make this argument, but I don't think it's really helping your cause. I think you're hurting your own position by making this argument. Indeed, you may not be the right person to be making this argument at all. I can suggest a better argument for you to make, if you'd only listen to me. And this isn't the right forum for making this argument -- you should move to some other forum and make this argument, only bigger. You can be as "in your face" on some other forum as you like, just not on this forum.

You should follow my advice. After all, I'm only looking after your best interests.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

How wonderful, font of all knowledge, that you are here to save all the poor misguided souls at A2K from the opinions and views of others. However would they manage without your superior presence and guiding light.

not to fret, The Dys remains available with obvious superior presence and guiding light to answer any and all questions. I specialize in poor and misguided souls, I also walk on water and can raise the dead; I once kissed Mary Magdalene on the mouth.

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@High Seas,

Hey! maybe she was talking about the letter size. Smile

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@High Seas,

High Seas wrote:

I took you off ignore

and you're going back on

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The Dys...anyone that can raise Mary Magda from the dead by kissing her lips...well...he's not to be toyed with.

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@joefromchicago,

I understand your point, and it is a good one.

But what good is winning the battle if that will cause you to lose the war. And that is how I see this situation right now. This group does not have to back off. They can go ahead and build their complex in that location. They can win this battle. But the repercussions of their doing that, at this point, will likely be to damage the image of Muslims even more. It depends what their goal is.

If they just want to build a cultural religious complex, to serve the needs of the Muslim community, and to help promote better interfaith relations, it shouldn't matter to them whether the site is two blocks or 20 blocks from Ground Zero. If, in the face of overwhelming public opposition to that particular location, from people whose objections are not based on bigotry or pure Islamophobia, they still feel that they must hold their ground, they will have to live with an awful lot of resulting ill will. It depends what their goals really are.

Personally I don't care where they build their complex.

What bothers me is that on Monday this ad will be plastered on 20 NYC buses, and possibly on more buses and subways in the future.

http://gothamist.com/attachments/nyc_arts_john/081010busad.jpg

The controversy has gotten out of hand, and it is giving the bigots and the hate mongers, like the right wing group behind those ads, a field day. The longer the situation continues to boil, the more ammo, like these inflammatory ads, the bigots will bring out.

For most of the people in NYC, who have objections, the issue is not whether this group should build a cultural complex/mosque, but where it should be build. If the location shifts by a few blocks, most people will stop objecting. For them, this is less about bigotry and more about the extremely emotional nature of the land at Ground Zero. It would make sense, to me, if I were one of the developers of this project, to seek some compromise, like a change of location, so the majority of people would be reassured of my goodwill and positive intentions with my proposed enterprise. The developers of this project might or might not come to that same conclusion.

Again, I personally do not care where they build it.

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@djjd62,

djjd62 wrote:

...wow, i didn't realize we were so elitist...

Joe is the least elitist of men - that post was parody of Firefly's pretentious incoherence. Clearly hit its mark with destructive force - and even ricocheted off another Canadian for reasons still to be explained, if ever. It's all written in the book of Job - or it was, until Dys finally got here:

Quote:

“Man that is born of woman is of few days and full of trouble. He cometh like a flower and is cut down he fleeth also as a shadow and continueth not.”

1 Reply

@firefly,

firefly wrote:

...
What bothers me is that on Monday this ad will be plastered on 20 NYC buses, and possibly on more buses and subways in the future.

Not to worry, unless you figure that killing blacks off one-by-one is any better than 3,000 of various colors and religions at a time. This picture has only been posted in post offices so far - and btw how many synagogues are there within a mile radius of the black cemetery near Trinity church?

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/CRIME/08/12/michigan.serial.stabbing.arrest/story.elias.abuelazam.lcso.jpg

Quote:

A federal law enforcement official involved in the investigation said the man was traveling on an expired Israeli passport.....
African-Americans were targeted in the stabbings in his state that have been connected to other attacks......The FBI and local police had been conducting a multistate search for a suspect in the stabbings.... and they had recently released a composite sketch.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/08/12/michigan.serial.stabbing.arrest/?hpt=T2

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@High Seas,

i've got no problem with joe, his post, however, seemed to represent the forum, and how one should comport themselves therein

as to his posts value as parody, i leave that for others to decide

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@Foofie,

http://sadtrombone.com/

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@firefly,

Quote:

But what good is winning the battle if that will cause you to lose the war.

we won every battle in Vietnam but lost the war, so we invaded Granada.

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@dyslexia,

dyslexia wrote:

..we won every battle in Vietnam but lost the war...

For some reason I was reading last night (on a long flight) dispatches sent by Cornwallis during 1781 to his masters in London and was struck by his bitter complaints about the "will-o'-the-wisp" Americans and that "most evasive man", George Washington, who "would never be pinned down". I knew we had lost in Vietnam when Ho Chi Minh gave an interview to a French (if I recall correctly) magazine saying he was a great admirer of Washington (the man, not the city) and he tried to emulate his military tactics. The Afghan insurgents are another such pesky lot. Smile

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

I understand your point, and it is a good one.

I guess that's one in a row for me.

firefly wrote:

The controversy has gotten out of hand, and it is giving the bigots and the hate mongers, like the right wing group behind those ads, a field day. The longer the situation continues to boil, the more ammo, like these inflammatory ads, the bigots will bring out.

The solution, though, is not to use the controversy (or, more accurately, the "nontroversy") that has been invented by the bigots as an excuse to give in to the bigots. That just encourages them.

firefly wrote:

For most of the people in NYC, who have objections, the issue is not whether this group should build a cultural complex/mosque, but where it should be build. If the location shifts by a few blocks, most people will stop objecting.

I'm not so optimistic. As other posters have noted, people all across America are objecting to mosques that are nowhere near lower Manhattan.

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@joefromchicago,

You give these people an inch, and they'll take a mile.

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@firefly,

Quote:

This group does not have to back off. They can go ahead and build their complex in that location. They can win this battle. But the repercussions of their doing that, at this point, will likely be to damage the image of Muslims even more. It depends what their goal is.

How so? In one year's time no one will remember there is a Mosque there. The war won't be lost. It will be forgotten by 99% of those people discussing it today. The only people that it will affect are those whose mind won't be changed, those who go to the place and those who hate muslims

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

If Raul and Khan dig in their heels and refuse to re-locate, they will not serve their cause well. They will appear to have an in-your-face attitude when some greater understanding is called for.

Two points:

(1) I just love those passive constructions with no antecedent. You're right "some greater understanding is called for"---because you and people who agree with you are calling for it! As DrewDad said so well in some other thread: "Tautology club is tautology club".

(2) What makes you think an in-your-face attitude will not serve Raul's and Kahn's cause well? From the souffragettes to the civil rights movement to the gay rights movement, many causes to promote unpopular out-groups have benefitted from in-your-face members flaunting an in-your-face attitude. Take the Greensboro Five, for example. (The Smithsonian Channel devoted a feature to them yesterday.) These five Black activists had plenty of other lunch counters to sit on. Yet they decided to take an in-your-face attitude about it and sat at an all-white lunch counter---even though the waitress wouldn't serve them, and the majority of patrons were against Blacks sitting at "their" counter.

I think it's a good thing the Greensboro Five took an in-your-face attitude about ending segregation. If Raul and Kahn want to take an in-your-face stand on promoting non-fanatic Islam, that's their tactical decision to make. I, for one, wish them well if they do.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

As other posters have noted, people all across America are objecting to mosques that are nowhere near lower Manhattan.

Actually, I don't think those were "other posters". I think firefly made this point him- or herself. Credit where credit is due!

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Quote:

August 11, 2010 1:40 PM
CNN Poll: Nearly 70% Of Americans Oppose NYC Mosque Plan »
By Celeste Katz

A new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll shows an overwhelming majority of people nationwide are against the Cordoba House/Park51 mosque and Islamic cultural center proposed for construction near Ground Zero:

According to the new survey out Wednesday, nearly 70 percent of all Americans oppose the controversial plan to build the mosque just blocks away from the solemn site in lower Manhattan while just 29 percent favor the construction.

Broken down by party affiliation, 54 percent of Democrats oppose the plans while 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal.

The poll also showed opposition did not vary widely by age.

"Support for the controversial project is slightly higher among younger Americans than older Americans, but even among those under the age of 50, six in ten oppose the plan," said CNN Polling Director Keating Holland.

A lot has happened since then, but a July Quinnipiac poll found 52% of New
Yorkers opposed the project, compared with 31% who supported it.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/08/poll-nearly-70-of-americans-op.html#ixzz0wQjV50WH

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@firefly,

I tend to agree with Rauf's quotes that are taken as so horrible by anti-muslims, or at least see his points.
I also previously read the article Panzade posted about in the New Yorker, and saw that Rauf has spent decades on trying to foster mutual communication and understanding. Thus I can see a point of view, beyond constitutionality, that near the WTC might be a good place for a communication fostering site.

1 Reply

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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