46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 05:57 pm
@Foofie,
Your arrogance is pretty funny Foofie

If the muslims really wanted peace they wouldn't do what they can legally and rightfully do but would do what you want them to instead. Maybe if YOU really wanted peace Foofie you wouldn't be so gung ho to prevent people from living within the law.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 05:58 pm
@engineer,
I just rolled my eyes when I read about Patterson.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 06:10 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Foofie wrote:

Some Americans might even think of it as "tacit approval" by Muslims (of terrorism, since the end result of terrorism seems to be more Moslem communities around the globe)?

But isn't that a significant failure on the part of those Americans? I'm a white male. I do not feel the need to apologize whenever a white male commits a crime. Bernie Maddoff steals billions... no apology from me. Child rapist in California? No apology from me. White supremists in Germany being stupid? Nope, no need for me to apologize. For some reason, some people think that when a Muslim from the other side of the planet decides to commit a crime in the US, Muslims in this country must all stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance. Instead of joining them in demanding an apology, we should be pointing out how ridiculous that demand is.


I do not believe anyone is "demanding an apology," so to speak. But, it may be helpful if the mosquevites moved their mosque to somewhere farther from Ground Zero. That just might show that they empathize with those Americans, that are not Muslims, that American Muslims commiserate with the concept of Ground Zero not having something that can be misconstrued as a trophy for Islam.

It really might just have to do with the mosque reflecting in some people's minds a perception of a degree of insensitivity and pushiness on the part of the mosque organizers.

In the way of analogy, when 15 or so Jewish families came to Jamestown in the early 1600's they were told they could come to this country, as long as they did not have a religious hierarchy, as they had in Europe. They had to accept, in order to stay. Also, in New Amsterdam, the small population of Jews could not build a synagogue, until the British took over. And did not Lord Baltimore buy land (aka, Mary-land) so Catholics can live in the New World. We do not necessarily have a history of great affection for newcomers; however, with time the newcomers show they are good Americans. Right now, I do not have to appreciate the finer points of Muslims. Let future generations of my family adore their fine points. I prefer the old New York ethnics for interacting (i.e., Italian, Irish, Black, Puerto Rican). Just call me parochial.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 06:31 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

firefly wrote:
But some of those grieving families and friends were American Muslims.

This point can't be repeated enough. About a percent of American citizens are Muslims. (Nobody knows for sure, but it's a common estimate.) If the concentration of Muslims in New York is average for the country---probably a conservative estimate---about 100,000--200,000 New Yorkers are of Muslim faith. Therefore, the rhetoric game of playing "the feelings of New Yorkers" against "the Muslims and their mosque" is phony. Down at the site of the proposed building, it's New Yorkers on both side of the issue. This conflict is about conservative Christian New Yorkers and conservative Jewish New Yorkers, uniting to dump on Muslim New Yorkers. It's not about New Yorkers vs Muslims.


I thought the Pope requested that the Carmelite nuns, that were praying for the Jewish souls at a concentration camp site, should stop. And, they did, since dead Jews do not need Catholic nuns praying for their souls. Just like dead Christians do not need Mormons converting their souls to Mormon souls.

So, a mega-mosque that is so close to Ground Zero could be thought of as inappropriate for the burial ground of so many non-Muslims. Remains are still being found at Ground Zero of victims.

And, no one is "dumping" on Muslim New Yorkers. Some New Yorkers are just anti-mega-mosque at Ground Zero.

If there had been no 9/11, then I believe no one would be protesting a mega-mosque so close to the Twin Towers. Ah, but that reality is just a dream. That is sad.

So, if the mega-mosque is not built, it might be "sad" for New York Muslims, at best. Would that not help them to commiserate with the sadness of the families that lost loved ones on 9/11? It might then help New York Muslims to understand NYC better. You know New Yorkers are not like Americans in the rest of the country. In other words, not building the mega-mosque could be looked upon as "a good work" towards New York Muslims and their assimilating into more authentic New Yorkers.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 06:34 pm
@Foofie,
So many of those "non-Muslims" are bigots, and have no idea what the Constitution is about.

How many innocent Muslims do you think American soldiers/airmen killed in the Middle East? 3,000?
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 06:43 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Your arrogance is pretty funny Foofie

If the muslims really wanted peace they wouldn't do what they can legally and rightfully do but would do what you want them to instead. Maybe if YOU really wanted peace Foofie you wouldn't be so gung ho to prevent people from living within the law.


How did "peace" come into this controversy? God bless the U.S. military.
Foofie
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 06:45 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

So many of those "non-Muslims" are bigots, and have no idea what the Constitution is about.

How many innocent Muslims do you think American soldiers/airmen killed in the Middle East? 3,000?


I do not know. Am I supposed to care about non-Americans? Sorry, I do not have universal love of the world. I only care about Americans.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 06:51 pm
@Intrepid,
Intrepid wrote:
Governor Patterson just proposed a reasonable compromise. The state is willing to help the Cordoba group find a different site for the proposed cultural center/mosque which is further from the WTC location.

Intrepid wrote:
I am not sure how that is reasonable.

I agree. I don't see the reasonableness either. For an analogy, suppose a bunch of White Supremacists demanded that Jews and Blacks quit walking in Central Park anymore. Sure, they have the right to, but as a matter of courtesy they waive its exercise. Now, if the governor proposed as a compromise that he find them some other park to walk in, nobody would call that "reasonable". Paterson's "reasonable compromise" with the religious bigots in this case is morally equivalent to that.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 07:01 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:
How did "peace" come into this controversy?


Foofie wrote:

Plus, if the mosque and its mosquevites truly want to build bridges of peace,
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 07:07 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Your arrogance is pretty funny Foofie

If the muslims really wanted peace they wouldn't do what they can legally and rightfully do but would do what you want them to instead. Maybe if YOU really wanted peace Foofie you wouldn't be so gung ho to prevent people from living within the law.


I am not "gung ho to prevent people from living within the law." I am just commiserating with those folks that prefer the mega-mosque not be so close to Ground Zero. That is not being "gung ho." Please do not ascribe motivations to my ability to be facile with the language and punctuate correctly. And, I never said anything relative to ways to "prevent" the mega-mosque mosquevites. I always talked in context of the mosquevites desisting on their own accord, based on commiserating with some folks' feelings. You are making a false accusation to talk of me "preventing" anything that the mosquevites would choose to do "within the law."

dyslexia
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 07:07 pm
it's am american tradition called "separate but equal"
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 07:26 pm
Quote:

The New York Times
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 7, 2010
Across Nation, Mosque Projects Meet Opposition
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

While a high-profile battle rages over a mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, heated confrontations have also broken out in communities across the country where mosques are proposed for far less hallowed locations.

In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

At one time, neighbors who did not want mosques in their backyards said their concerns were over traffic, parking and noise — the same reasons they might object to a church or a synagogue. But now the gloves are off.

In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law.

These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat.

“What’s different is the heat, the volume, the level of hostility,” said Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. “It’s one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it’s different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers, that Islam is invading, that civilization is being undermined by Muslims.”

Feeding the resistance is a growing cottage industry of authors and bloggers — some of them former Muslims — who are invited to speak at rallies, sell their books and testify in churches. Their message is that Islam is inherently violent and incompatible with America.

But they have not gone unanswered. In each community, interfaith groups led by Protestant ministers, Catholic priests, rabbis and clergy members of other faiths have defended the mosques. Often, they have been slower to organize than the mosque opponents, but their numbers have usually been larger.

The mosque proposed for the site near ground zero in Lower Manhattan cleared a final hurdle last week before the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission, and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg hailed the decision with a forceful speech on religious liberty. While an array of religious groups supported the project, opponents included the Anti-Defamation League, an influential Jewish group, and prominent Republicans like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker.

A smaller controversy is occurring in Temecula, about 60 miles north of San Diego, involving a typical stew of religion, politics and anti-immigrant sentiment. A Muslim community has been there for about 12 years and expanded to 150 families who have outgrown their makeshift worship space in a warehouse, said Mahmoud Harmoush, the imam, a lecturer at California State University, San Bernardino. The group wants to build a 25,000-square-foot center, with space for classrooms and a playground, on a lot it bought in 2000.

Mr. Harmoush said the Muslim families had contributed to the local food bank, sent truckloads of supplies to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and participated in music nights and Thanksgiving events with the local interfaith council.

“We do all these activities and nobody notices,” he said. “Now that we have to build our center, everybody jumps to make it an issue.”

Recently, a small group of activists became alarmed about the mosque. Diana Serafin, a grandmother who lost her job in tech support this year, said she reached out to others she knew from attending Tea Party events and anti-immigration rallies. She said they read books by critics of Islam, including former Muslims like Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan and Manoucher Bakh. She also attended a meeting of the local chapter of ACT! for America, a Florida-based group that says its purpose is to defend Western civilization against Islam.

“As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that.”

“I do believe everybody has a right to freedom of religion,” she said. “But Islam is not about a religion. It’s a political government, and it’s 100 percent against our Constitution.”

Ms. Serafin was among an estimated 20 to 30 people who turned out to protest the mosque, including some who intentionally took dogs to offend those Muslims who consider dogs to be ritually unclean. But they were outnumbered by at least 75 supporters. The City of Temecula recently postponed a hearing on whether to grant the mosque a permit.

Larry Slusser, a Mormon and the secretary of the Interfaith Council of Murietta and Temecula, went to the protest to support the Muslim group. “I know them,” he said. “They’re good people. They have no ill intent. They’re good Americans. They are leaders in their professions.”

Of the protesters, he said, “they have fear because they don’t know them.”

Religious freedom is also at stake, Mr. Slusser said, adding, “They’re Americans, they deserve to have a place to worship just like everybody else.”

There are about 1,900 mosques in the United States, which run the gamut from makeshift prayer rooms in storefronts and houses to large buildings with adjoining community centers, according to a preliminary survey by Mr. Bagby, who conducted a mosque study 10 years ago and is now undertaking another.

A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts.

Radicalization of alienated Muslim youths is a real threat, Mr. Bagby said. “But the youth we worry about,” he said, “are not the youth that come to the mosque.”

In central Tennessee, the mosque in Murfreesboro is the third one in the last year to encounter resistance. It became a political issue when Republican candidates for governor and Congress declared their opposition. (They were defeated in primary elections on Thursday.)

A group called Former Muslims United put up a billboard saying “Stop the Murfreesboro Mosque.” The group’s president is Nonie Darwish, also the founder of Arabs for Israel, who spoke against Islam in Murfreesboro at a fund-raising dinner for Christians United for Israel, an evangelical organization led by the Rev. John Hagee.

“A mosque is not just a place for worship,” Ms. Darwish said in an interview. “It’s a place where war is started, where commandments to do jihad start, where incitements against non-Muslims occur. It’s a place where ammunition was stored.”

Camie Ayash, a spokeswoman for the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, lamented that people were listening to what she called “total disinformation” on Islam.

She said her group was stunned when what began as one person raising zoning questions about the new mosque evolved into mass protests with marchers waving signs about Shariah.

“A lot of Muslims came to the U.S. because they respect the Constitution,” she said. “There’s no conflict with the U.S. Constitution in Shariah law. If there were, Muslims wouldn’t be living here.”

In Wisconsin, the conflict over the mosque was settled when the Town Executive Council voted unanimously to give the Islamic Society of Sheboygan a permit to use the former health food store as a prayer space.

Dr. Mansoor Mirza, the physician who owns the property, said he was trying to take the long view of the controversy.

“Every new group coming to this country — Jews, Catholics, Irish, Germans, Japanese — has gone through this,” Dr. Mirza said. “Now I think it’s our turn to pay the price, and eventually we will be coming out of this, too.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?sq=mosque&st=cse&scp=3&pagewanted=print
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 07:32 pm
@firefly,
"Prominent republicans and Sarah Palin" tells the whole story that this is out of hand and un-American.
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:26 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Governor Patterson just proposed a reasonable compromise. The state is willing to help the Cordoba group find a different site for the proposed cultural center/mosque which is further from the WTC location.

Intrepid wrote:
I am not sure how that is reasonable.

I agree. I don't see the reasonableness either. For an analogy, suppose a bunch of White Supremacists demanded that Jews and Blacks quit walking in Central Park anymore. Sure, they have the right to, but as a matter of courtesy they waive its exercise. Now, if the governor proposed as a compromise that he find them some other park to walk in, nobody would call that "reasonable". Paterson's "reasonable compromise" with the religious bigots in this case is morally equivalent to that.


Good analogy.

I would also like to point out that the first quote you attribute to me was not said by me. The second quote, however, is mine. That was part of my reply to the first quote from another poster. Smile
0 Replies
 
Intrepid
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:29 am
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:


I am not "gung ho to prevent people from living within the law." I am just commiserating with those folks that prefer the mega-mosque not be so close to Ground Zero. That is not being "gung ho



You have never, to my knowledge, answered the questions, "How close is too close" "How far away should it be?"
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:49 am
@Intrepid,
Apparently its not a Mosque but a resource center thats proposed to be at the old Burlington Coat FActory which is actually two blocks away. Is this a hill constructed by the family TAlpidae ?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 04:54 am
@farmerman,
Thanks for sending me to the dictionary, fm.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 06:42 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
I am just commiserating with those folks that prefer the mega-mosque not be so close to Ground Zero. That is not being "gung ho."

For someone that is "just commiserating" you seem to be making a lot of arguments against the mosque.

Quote:

Plus, if the mosque and its mosquevites truly want to build bridges of peace, the first step might be to place this mosque somewhere other than so close to Ground Zero, where just in June more remains of victims have been found.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 08:02 am
@edgarblythe,
Quote:
Thanks for sending me to the dictionary, fm.
Hey, I have software that IDs all the orders, families, genera, and species of ALL living things. SO all i hadda do was click a button to come up wit dt. (I originally wrote Mustelidae, and I then thought that mustids were weasels, so I Too hadda lookit up on my handy dandy"Web-o'life" CD (ITS on my desktop).
I also have invertebrate fossils too.
AND they only cost 595 bucks with a EDU connection.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Aug, 2010 08:36 am
I think there's a perfect solution here that no one has yet considered. Instead of moving the mosque away from Ground Zero, we should move Ground Zero away from the mosque. I suggest Camden, New Jersey.
 

Related Topics

T'Pring is Dead - Discussion by Brandon9000
Another Calif. shooting spree: 4 dead - Discussion by Lustig Andrei
Before you criticize the media - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Fatal Baloon Accident - Discussion by 33export
The Day Ferguson Cops Were Caught in a Bloody Lie - Discussion by bobsal u1553115
Robin Williams is dead - Discussion by Butrflynet
Amanda Knox - Discussion by JTT
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.11 seconds on 11/16/2024 at 03:55:36