46
   

Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 10:59 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
"Authoritative" may not be the operant thought; perhaps it should be "traumatized"? The question then is, how compassionate should we be for those that were traumatized by 9/11? Have the Muslims that will "enjoy" this mega-mosque been traumatized by 9/11?


The REAL question, Foofie, is how compassionate you should be for the millions who have been traumatized and murdered over, at least, the last century by US terrorism and illegal invasions.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:00 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Foofie wrote:
Sort of like PTSD then?

Sure. But we don't tell everyone not to shoot fireworks on the 4th of July because some veterans don't like it.

If you have PTSD because of 9/11 then go get therapy; you don't get to tell everyone else how to live their lives just because you're scared of your shadow.


I was not talking about myself, but empathizing with many New Yorkers and those who were traumatized by 9/11 in the tri-state area, and those that lost loved ones on 9/11. Anyone can trivialize the feelings of many New Yorkers, and give great credence to the Muslims that will be the megamosque congregants. I just choose to value old-time New Yorkers over this comparatively recent immigrant group. I certainly do not value a non-New Yorker's thinking on this subject over a New Yorker's feelings, not with the decades of so many people reacting to New York as "a nice place to visit, but I would not want to live there."

That is my attitude about the hinterland of the U.S. And, that is why I mind my own business when there are controversies in the rest of the country. I only put my Yiddisha nose, so to speak, in the business of New York; otherwise, I M.Y.O.B.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:03 am
@JTT,
JTT, Another good point about relativism.
0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:


...Religious symbols are a separate issue from 9-11, and has no place in politics or denial of particular religions in this country.


O.K. build the mosque, but keep all Muslims out. Just leave it as a memorial to "peaceful Islam." Sort of like rebuilding on the Ground Zero sight, but leaving out all the people who previously worked there in the Twin Towers.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:05 am
@Foofie,
Well, if the question of whether the mosque could be build depended on feelings then this might matter. But it's not a question of how anyone feels.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:08 am
@DrewDad,
Precisely! It depends on whether it's right or wrong, and is Constitutional.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:08 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
but the lack of responsibility of many peaceful Muslims to their religion's extremism may not sit well with some Americans. Some Americans might even think of it as "tacit approval" by Muslims (of terrorism, since the end result of terrorism seems to be more Moslem communities around the globe)?


You are so ignorant of what has happened in the world. As Ramsay Clark says,

"The United States is not nearly so concerned that its acts be kept secret
from its intended victims as it is that the American people not know of them.”

That you would dare to fault others given the lack of responsibility of Americans regarding the extremism, the terrorism, the murders of the US governments' predations on numerous countries of the world is truly laughable, Foofie.

It's like you have no brain, ..., hmmmmmm, which I guess, given the relentless propaganda that you are subjected to might not be far from the truth.

Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:10 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
"Authoritative" may not be the operant thought; perhaps it should be "traumatized"? The question then is, how compassionate should we be for those that were traumatized by 9/11? Have the Muslims that will "enjoy" this mega-mosque been traumatized by 9/11?


The REAL question, Foofie, is how compassionate you should be for the millions who have been traumatized and murdered over, at least, the last century by US terrorism and illegal invasions.


Like any loyal dog (i.e., Rin Tin Tin, Lassie) I do not bite the hand that feeds me and my family since the 1880's. Plus, you know the negative stereotype of "Jews taking over." I am working hard at ending that stereotype by letting all the Gentiles run this great Protestant country as they see fit. It really is none of my business. Something we were told in basic training by the sergeant, upon arrival, and it was the best advice I ever got: minding my own business will make my stay in the service much easier. It applies to civilian life also.

I do hope you do not want me to be a Jew that wants to "take over," so to speak. You may carry whatever banner you want, just do not ask me to join in.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:10 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Well, if the question of whether the mosque could be build depended on feelings then this might matter. But it's not a question of how anyone feels.


Says you!
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:13 am
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
but the lack of responsibility of many peaceful Muslims to their religion's extremism may not sit well with some Americans. Some Americans might even think of it as "tacit approval" by Muslims (of terrorism, since the end result of terrorism seems to be more Moslem communities around the globe)?


You are so ignorant of what has happened in the world. As Ramsay Clark says,

"The United States is not nearly so concerned that its acts be kept secret
from its intended victims as it is that the American people not know of them.”

That you would dare to fault others given the lack of responsibility of Americans regarding the extremism, the terrorism, the murders of the US governments' predations on numerous countries of the world is truly laughable, Foofie.

It's like you have no brain, ..., hmmmmmm, which I guess, given the relentless propaganda that you are subjected to might not be far from the truth.




This is a great Protestant country. You should sell them on your concerns, not one New York Jew. I am just glad my grandparents had the good sense to leave Czarist Russia in the latter half of the nineteenth century. If they did not, I likely would not have been born. That trumps your thinking.
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:17 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
This is a great Protestant country.


Great countries, of whatever religious persuasion, do not kill 5 to 6million people, just to satisfy their greed.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:25 am
@Foofie,
You're entitled to your opinion, and your feelings, but all opinions are not created equal.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:31 am
@Foofie,
Quote:
Like any loyal dog (i.e., Rin Tin Tin, Lassie) I do not bite the hand that feeds me and my family since the 1880's.


So you admit that you care not at all for the rule of law, for justice, for what's right. All you care about is filling your own tummy and you're more than willing to do whatever is necessary to provide cover for those who would commit evil, as long as you are allowed to escape that evil.

firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 11:44 am
@Foofie,
Foofie, I agree with you that NYers were probably more traumatized by 9/11 than people from elsewhere. The 3000 or so victims, who died that day, lived in the NY metropolitan area. So, thousands and thousands and thousands of family members and friends and co-workers, were thrown into a deep state of mourning, in addition to the shock and horror we all felt. All those people wearing buttons with pictures of lost loved ones, condolence books in all the libraries, people wandering around lower Manhattan holding pictures of loved ones they searched for in vain, the daily newspapers filled with pictures of the dead, profoundly affected everyone in the NY area. And this profound grieving, and all those funerals and memorial services, went on for months and months, throughout the NY metropolitan area. There was a pall of grief over the entire area. The rest of the country did not live through that. I agree with you, it was different in NY, and NJ, and Connecticut. Those victims lived there.

But some of those grieving families and friends were American Muslims. They lost their Muslim loved ones at the WTC too that day. And their tears were just as real as everyone else's. And most American Muslims were not cheering and rejoicing, they were just as horrified and shocked and outraged by what happened that day as everyone else, possibly more so, because it was allegedly done under the guise of their religion.

I am sure that some people do feel offended that a new mosque will be built in the general area of the WTC site. But the offended feelings of some does not trump the more important issue of religious freedom in this country. People who are offended by the very sight of a mosque, because of 9/11, cannot let their emotions destroy other people's constitutional rights. Anti-semitic communities used to forbid the building of synagogues within their boundaries because Jews offended their sensibilities. That was wrong, just as blocking construction of a mosque in lower Manhattan, or anywhere in the U.S., is wrong. If we start eroding our religious freedoms because of 9/11, the terrorists will have won, they will have helped to damage the fabric of our democracy. And if we prevent the building of mosques, we give Muslims all over the world a reason to view us as their enemy. That helps to create more radicals and more terrorists.

The one issue I have heard raised, that gives me pause for thought, has to do with where the Cordoba group will find the money to finance this project. They do not currently have the cash to put up that building. Because of legitimate concerns about foreign financing entering into the picture, possibly from sources with anti-American feelings, the financial backing of this project must be absolutely transparent and available to the government. This is not an existing mosque, like the Masjid Manhattan Mosque, with an existing congregation of followers. This is an entirely new enterprise. If the financing doesn't satisfy security concerns, that becomes an important matter. But just to object to a mosque being built, because it is a mosque, is an inconsequential objection when compared to the civil rights of those who wish to build the mosque.

So, while I respect your emotional antipathy to the building of this mosque, I feel that it is not enough of a substantive objection to actually block construction of that mosque.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:05 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

What the other anti-mosquevites are objecting too. Try reading a NYC newspaper, rather than asking one New Yorker, as though my opinion is somehow more relevant than those that lost family on 9/11.

I have come to this thread somewhat late, so the first thing I did was to read some NYC papers to get the story, but I wanted to know what your objection was, not the firefighter who is leading the lawsuit. After all, you are the one debating the issue here and I wouldn't want to lump you into the same group with those I read about. From the article I read, the fire fighter is clearly making up any pretext he can to stop a prayer center from being renovated. Clearly a misuse of the courts to me. As for those who lost family in the terrorist attacks, my heart goes out to them, but I don't ceed them authority to decide who builds and who doesn't in all of NY city, nor should New Yorkers.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:09 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Notice that New Yorkers usually do not stick their nose in the problems of the rest of the country, I believe. Interesting, I think, how many people from other places think New York is their business? Perhaps, M.Y.O.B. is the correct etiquette?

This is a chat board, we stick our noses wherever the stories lead and chat with great irreverence. I don't think you can say Balloon Boy is open for debate, but NY City is sacred ground.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:11 pm
The governor of NY has just proposed a compromise..it seems reasonable

Quote:

NY governor offers help moving ground zero mosque
August 10, 2010 1:39 PM
By The Associated Press
MICHAEL GORMLEY (Associated Press Writer)

ALBANY, N.Y. - (AP) — New York Gov. David Paterson offered state help Tuesday if the developers of a proposed mosque near the site of the Sept. 11 attacks agree to move the project farther from the site.

Paterson, a Democrat, said that he doesn't oppose the project as planned but indicated that he understands where opponents are coming from. He said he was willing to intervene to seek other suitable state property if the developers agreed.

"I think it's rather clear that building a center there meets all the requirements, but it does seem to ignite an immense amount of anxiety among the citizens of New York and people everywhere, and I think not without cause," Paterson said in a news conference in Manhattan.

"I am very sensitive to the desire of those who are adamant against it to see something else worked out," Paterson said.

The developers declined to comment. Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who last week made an impassioned defense of the project planned for lower Manhattan, also had no immediate comment.

Paterson said he expects the state Public Service Commission, which must sign off on the project, to follow the law and not politics in its review.

Paterson noted that "we really are still suffering in many respects" from Sept. 11 and that impassioned feelings were bound to emerge from a mosque just a couple of blocks from where nearly 3,000 people died at the hands of Muslim extremists.

He noted that Muslims died in the Sept. 11 attacks, too, and that "we have to remember that sometimes it's the fanaticism of religion that have driven people to do what they do, not the worship of the religion itself."

A Marist College poll released Tuesday found that 53 percent of New York City voters polled oppose constructing the mosque there. Just 34 percent favored the plan in the poll, which also showed a slide in Bloomberg's traditional high approval ratings.

The Marist poll surveyed 809 New York City residents July 28 through Aug. 5 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/ny-governor-offers-help-moving-ground-zero-mosque-1.2195627

0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:14 pm
@Foofie,
You are a bit unhinged on the subject of Muslims and as a result you are not making rational statements or arguments.

You have ignored post which showed were peaceful Muslims have condemned the attack on 9/11 and terrorist attacks in general. They might as well be speaking to the wind for all the heed they are given by the likes of people such as yourself.

Nonetheless,

Ahmadiyya Muslim leader: 'Islam condemns terrorism'

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has consistently and persistently condemned terrorism and the killing of innocent civilians.

Islamic Statements Against Terrorism

Muslim Condemnations of 9/11

Poll: 93% of Muslims Worldwide Condemn 9/11 Attacks – 0% Approve of Attacks on Religious Grounds

I am sure I could spend the rest of the afternoon bringing links where peaceful Muslims condemn terrorism, both privately and public figures, public.

You have also ignore the fact that Muslims were on 9/11, they had loved killed on 9/11, they watched the twin towers burning in their name without their permission but for which they are blamed for. It was not right to round up all the Japanese and put them in camps so I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Also the Pentagon was also crashed into on that same day and there were Muslims there as well. Not only that but there been a Muslim prayer building added to the Pentagon.

Prayer building on Marine base
not really mosque, officials say


Quote:
"It is sadly ironic and lost on most that the plan to dedicate the prayer center and build a new mosque was approved by military leaders occupying a building that was attacked on 9/11 – the Pentagon – where more than 100 of its occupants were killed on that day," was the conclusion of those at Homelandsecurityus.com, a private security organization.

0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:16 pm
@Foofie,
Foofie wrote:

Some Americans might even think of it as "tacit approval" by Muslims (of terrorism, since the end result of terrorism seems to be more Moslem communities around the globe)?

But isn't that a significant failure on the part of those Americans? I'm a white male. I do not feel the need to apologize whenever a white male commits a crime. Bernie Maddoff steals billions... no apology from me. Child rapist in California? No apology from me. White supremists in Germany being stupid? Nope, no need for me to apologize. For some reason, some people think that when a Muslim from the other side of the planet decides to commit a crime in the US, Muslims in this country must all stand up and say the Pledge of Allegiance. Instead of joining them in demanding an apology, we should be pointing out how ridiculous that demand is.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Aug, 2010 12:21 pm
@engineer,
Spot on!
0 Replies
 
 

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