Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

@failures art,

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Take a theft for example.

You can't take a theft for an example because it isn't an example of a civil action. It is a criminal action. I thought you said that you understood the difference.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Here's some specifics: All my siblings are christians, and I'm an atheist, and they not only pray for me, but continue to try to convert me. I tell them not to waste their effort and energy on this one topic, but to no avail.

You equate your siblings with all Christians? Seems the same as equating all Muslims with a few radicals involving the WTC.

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@JTT,

Interesting, you mean that Sharia law could not trump the US law? Isn't that EXACTLY my point? The comparison of civil court and sharia law is utterly absurd.

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

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The fear, in my opinion, is that Christians do not have a history of violence to get their way, nor to convert folks, and Islam does

Are you really that ignorant?

Christians do not have a history of violence in the name of their religion? How about the Crusades. The Inquisition. Their past wars with Islam. Driving Jews out of Christian countries, or killing them, if they wouldn't convert. Most anti-Semitism, in fact, and historical persecution of the Jews through the millennia has come from Christian violence toward Jews as a religious group. Christianity has been one bloody religion, with the violence done in the name of their religion.

And the clash between Muslims and Christians over the building of those mosques, including the one in NYC, is because the Christian evangelical religious right is trying to stomp out Islam as a religion. They keep sending their religious missionaries into the Muslim world, into places that really don't want or allow them, allegedly as health care workers or some other "cover", but their goal, in most instances, is really to seek converts to Christianity. They proselytize constantly. Much more than the Muslims do. And that winds up generating a lot of hostility toward the West and the U.S. because they see us as a threat to their culture, their religion, and their way of life, in their part of the world.

A good part of what motivated the 9/11 attacks was political and not religious. They didn't like American foreign policy. And, after our forays into Afghanistan and Iraq, they like us even less now than they did then. By "they" I mean the more radical extremist Muslims.

You do not believe in emotional growth? Christians that are practicing have usually been quite nice to me, nicer than many fellow Jews have been to me. Non-practicing Christians (aka, Gentiles) sometimes have been the practicioners of anti-Semitism, usually covert, in my personal observations.

And, Muslims today read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as historical fact in some Muslim countries.

I prefer church going Christians as neighbors.

P.S. Thank you for calling me "ignorant."

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@failures art,

Quote:

Interesting, you mean that Sharia law could not trump the US law? Isn't that EXACTLY my point? The comparison of civil court and sharia law is utterly absurd.

I'm not sure what your point is/was, Art. The only person who made a comparison between civil courts and Sharia law was you. There was never any discussion of any "law" trumping the legal system of any country.

The discussion was of arbitrators making decisions, where both parties, in a civil action, agreed to be bound by the decision; a process that is allowed for in the legal system.

And within Sharia law, there are also civil disputes that are handled.

There's no reason that the same process, civil processes couldn't be handled within the American system. Did I not mention that OmSig said that there is a procss for arbitration in New York?

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@firefly,

firefly wrote:

Reading this thread leaves me feeling very sorry for Muslim Americans. How awful it must be to have to live with the kind of suspiciousness and hostility that's been expressed here.

Why should one "feel sorry for Muslim Americans"? As you point out, they are just living their lives, in context of their faith. Why feel sorry for them? They should be quite happy. Or, perhaps you mean they are the recipient of antipathy, that you believe is unwarranted? Well, the ethnic group that was the recipient of the most prejudice (not including Blacks, since slavery was not ethnic prejudice, per se) were the Irish. Let us now feel sorry for the Irish that had tons of prejudice heaped on them, and still were the best of citizens in every war.

I do not believe Muslim Americans have been here long enough to warrant my feeling sorry for them. I feel sorry for families that have been here for a hundred years, and are part of the working poor. I feel sorry for poor Whites, poor Blacks, poor Mexican-Americans. Many of these groups have been here for generations.

However, if you have enough emotional feelings to have feelings left over for the Muslim American dilemma (good Americans, but not appreciated), then God bless you.

By the way, in the way of history, and fairly recent history, historically speaking, when Jews and Christians lived in Muslim lands (aka, the Ottoman Empire) it was on the proviso that they were second class citizens. I think that ended for Jews in Europe with the Enlightenment? Anyway, in my opinion, my commiseration with put-upon groups can better be directed to those who have been here longer. Charity begins at home, I thought.

Lastly, if American Jews have overcome a degree of historical anti-Semitism in the U.S., it was done by their own efforts to find a utilitarian niche that resulted in many Gentiles learning that Jews could be an asset, not just an imagined threat. So, I would predict that when American Muslims evolve their livelihoods beyond taxi cab drivers, food cart vendors, small retail store owners, or franchise owners, and start to serve the general public as doctors, teachers, dentists, etc. (aka, "professionals"), I believe that a good percentage of the general population will have an epiphany that Muslims are nice. Nothing like getting good utility out of a group to ameliorate hostility, I believe.

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@Foofie,

firefly wrote:

Reading this thread leaves me feeling very sorry for Muslim Americans. How awful it must be to have to live with the kind of suspiciousness and hostility that's been expressed here.

Sadly, it's not just American Muslims. There are controversies over mosques being built in several Western countries. There were protesters and petitions against the mega-Mosque proposed for the London Olympic site. There are current protests being waged in France over a mosque in Marseille, and also one in Australia.

Overall, I think most get built unnoticed. As you pointed out earlier, there are thousands of mosques both here and across Europe.

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@Foofie,

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I feel sorry for poor Whites, poor Blacks, poor Mexican-Americans.

Quote:

So, I would predict that when American Muslims evolve their livelihoods beyond taxi cab drivers, food cart vendors, small retail store owners, or franchise owners, and start to serve the general public as doctors, teachers, dentists, etc. (aka, "professionals"), I believe that a good percentage of the general population will have an epiphany that Muslims are nice.

You are a cacophony of hypocrisy and ignorance, Foofie.

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@failures art,

Sharia law shouldn't trump national law. I'd just argue that to me, it wouldn't make a difference whether people agreed on having their civil disputes resolved by either a Beth Din or a Sharia court, as long as they are working within the legal framework of the respective country.

Given that some religious groups already enjoy the privilege of being able to resort to a religious court, on what grounds would you deny another religious group the same rights?

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@JTT,

I did not initiate the comparison, JTT.

old europe wrote:

Parts of the discussion in Britain revolves around the fact that Jewish courts already exist in England. They can regulate civil disputes in accordance with Jewish law, because English law allows any third party to arbitrate in a civil dispute, provided both parties to the dispute agree upon having that party taking on the case.

-> website of the London Beth Din

This was in response to Foofie's claim that one day Muslims could try and institute sharia law in the states.

In short, the fear that Muslims will come to the US and will start taking over with sharia law is a false threat. Foofie was offering a scenario which could not happen. Sharia law cannot be executed in the USA because the punishments in sharia law violate the federal and state constitutions. So using the ability to establish a third party civil court int he USA won't mean that sharia law can be done. Civil courts can only settle disputes.

The reason I brought up theft is to preempt the idea that a Muslim store owner could try and move the trial from a criminal court to a third party court so that the robber could be punished under sharia law. I know civil court doesn't handle criminal cases! I'm pointing out that there's no way for Sharia law to sidestep the American justice system by creating a thrid party civil court.

OE's post about how Jewish civil courts exist in England is to show how groups that are trying to establish a means to enforce sharia law are going about it. The establishment of the court itself however would not grant it the authority to hand out the punishments outlined in sharia law. As you understand civil courts don't have that kind of authority.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

Sharia law shouldn't trump national law. I'd just argue that to me, it wouldn't make a difference whether people agreed on having their civil disputes resolved by either a Beth Din or a Sharia court, as long as they are working within the legal framework of the respective country.

Given that some religious groups already enjoy the privilege of being able to resort to a religious court, on what grounds would you deny another religious group the same rights?

I would not deny them. If Muslims wish to settle money matters or property matters, or divorce matters, they can go wild in their own court. I really don't care.

Sharia law however has punishments like chopping of hands and stoning, for offenses that are not illegal in the USA (like the way a woman dresses). I'm saying that the establishment of a religious court doesn't equal sharia law because civil courts lack the kind of authority to execute most of sharia law. Additionally sharia law has punishments for things that are not illegal in the state's constitution. If I speak ill of Muhammad, it's not like some religious court has ANY jurisdiction over me because I don't recognize their authority.

Basically, the fear that Muslims are going to move into the neighborhood and arrest somebody's wife or daughter for indecency is an absurd thought. It won't happen.

You're stating what I'm stating: That the Federal and State law would trump and religious law.

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@failures art,

There's a reasonable argument to be made that the freedom we enjoy shouldn't be sacrificed to accommodate religion, and then there's unreasonable fear and paranoia that if Muslims were allowed to settle disputes according to their beliefs, then the United States would certainly be on their way to a legal system that would look like Afghanistan under the Taliban.

failures art wrote:

Sharia law cannot be executed in the USA because the punishments in sharia law violate the federal and state constitutions. So using the ability to establish a third party civil court int he USA won't mean that sharia law can be done. Civil courts can only settle disputes.

Well. Mosaic law cannot be practised in the United States either, because sentencing people to death for committing adultery seems to violate federal and state constitutions, too. Fortunately, Jewish Poskim seem to have found a way of interpreting the Pentateuch in a way that allows for somewhat less severe punishments than stoning and burning alive.

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@failures art,

Quote:

If I speak ill of Muhammad, it's not like some religious court has ANY jurisdiction over me because I don't recognize their authority.

They have jurisdiction where they have jurisdiction just as US law or British law has jurisdiction where each has jurisdiction. And in those locales it wouldn't matter if you recognized their authority or not, nor would it matter if you rattled off every US law, federal and state, and every constitution, protecting your "rights".

Of course, no harm would come to you, or to any American for that matter, because of the exemplary job your governments have done in the past, recent and distant, to win their hearts and minds.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

There's a reasonable argument to be made that the freedom we enjoy shouldn't be sacrificed to accommodate religion, and then there's unreasonable fear and paranoia that if Muslims were allowed to settle disputes according to their beliefs, then the United States would certainly be on their way to a legal system that would look like Afghanistan under the Taliban.

I'm not Foofie, with his "don't be so sure." I get it.

old europe wrote:

failures art wrote:
Sharia law cannot be executed in the USA because the punishments in sharia law violate the federal and state constitutions. So using the ability to establish a third party civil court int he USA won't mean that sharia law can be done. Civil courts can only settle disputes.

Well. Mosaic law cannot be practised in the United States either, because sentencing people to death for committing adultery seems to violate federal and state constitutions, too. Fortunately, Jewish Poskim seem to have found a way of interpreting the Pentateuch in a way that allows for somewhat less severe punishments than stoning and burning alive.

Ka ching!

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This is what I was trying to tell JTT.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

Quote:
If I speak ill of Muhammad, it's not like some religious court has ANY jurisdiction over me because I don't recognize their authority.

They have jurisdiction where they have jurisdiction just as US law or British law has jurisdiction where each has jurisdiction. And in those locales it wouldn't matter if you recognized their authority or not, nor would it matter if you rattled off every US law, federal and state, and every constitution, protecting your "rights".

Of course, no harm would come to you, or to any American for that matter, because of the exemplary job your governments have done in the past, recent and distant, to win their hearts and minds.

The penalty for blasphemy against Muhammad is death. I however have my freedom of speech. No religious court could enforce a death sentance. It would not matter if I was the only non-muslim in a locale in the USA, a sharia court could not do a damn thing. I'm not under their jurisdiction, nor do they have any sort authority.

They could not even fine me.

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@failures art,

My opening statement was:

They have jurisdiction where they have jurisdiction just as US law or British law has jurisdiction where each has jurisdiction.

You might want to check your understanding of Sharia law considering that you don't seem to have a particularly firm grasp of US law and you've grown up under that system.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

My opening statement was:

They have jurisdiction where they have jurisdiction just as US law or British law has jurisdiction where each has jurisdiction.

Your opening statement was obtuse. Duh. When I say they don't have jurisdiction over me, I'm aware of where I am. Within the boundaries of the USA, no religious kangaroo court can issue any punishment to me for blasphemy. Period.

If a sharia court is established, it will only be capable of covering the scope of settlements that other civil courts have. It would not be able to criminalize violations of sharia law by non-Muslims that didn't differ by their own will to such a court.

JTT wrote:

You might want to check your understanding of Sharia law considering that you don't seem to have a particularly firm grasp of US law and you've grown up under that system.

Get a clue, dude. US law would protect me from any sort of punishment from one of these courts. They can't even fine me (let alone execute me) for blasphemy, my right to free speech trumps their court.

My patience with your trolling has limits.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

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I feel sorry for poor Whites, poor Blacks, poor Mexican-Americans.

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So, I would predict that when American Muslims evolve their livelihoods beyond taxi cab drivers, food cart vendors, small retail store owners, or franchise owners, and start to serve the general public as doctors, teachers, dentists, etc. (aka, "professionals"), I believe that a good percentage of the general population will have an epiphany that Muslims are nice.

You are a cacophony of hypocrisy and ignorance, Foofie.

I only report what I observe from a NYC perspective. Not all naturally; however, I believe a sizable percentage.

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@failures art,

failures art wrote:

I'm not Foofie, with his "don't be so sure." I get it.

You are using quotation marks to misquote me. I never said, "don't be so sure." Note that I never use contractions.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

failures art wrote:

I'm not Foofie, with his "don't be so sure." I get it.

You are using quotation marks to misquote me. I never said, "don't be so sure." Note that I never use contractions.

My apologies. I paraphrased, I should have used single quotation marks. You wrote in full...

Foofie wrote:

In my opinion, having seen local Muslim women with burkas, and head scarves, and other garments I cannot name, I do question whether Muslims in some locales will assimilate the same way that other ethnic groups have assimilated. And specifically, I am questionning whether some Muslims in the U.S. will want Sharia law, similar to some Muslims in England?

To which I said they would not be able to institute sharia law in the USA anymore than Christians (and similarly Jews) could institute their religious laws in the USA.

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Mosque to be Built Near Ground Zero

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