Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

http://motherjones.com/politics/1999/05/hitting-wall

30 years later and we are still fighting to get scientific resources to study the problem, so that we can get at the truth....THIRTY ******* YEARS we have waited, and still women or at least groups claiming to speak for women fight the discovery process often with anger and denial and the belittling of men, and largely do so successfully.

It is an outrage. I am outraged.

In regard to my ex-wife she slaps me in a manner that I assume at the time was a means to try to provoked me into hitting her a method I am sure that some other women had used to get the upper hand in a divorce.

Nothing like a picture of a woman with a broken nose or a even a blacken eye to sink a man. Her problem was that even in my 20s I was bright enough to understand the situation and keep a tight control of my temper.

Then to add to the insult even those I in fact never did hit her and she did not have any pictures or others proof of any harm cause by me, she lied under oath to the court that I did in fact assault her when the only person assaulted in that marriage was myself.

Having that kind of nonsense happening directly to yourself does indeed raised some questions in your mind concerning others abused claims directed at other men.

Yes, I know one sample of what happen in one marriage is not scientific proof of anything but somehow I do not think that my ex-wife actions is all that uncommon.

we know that it is not uncommon, what we dont know is if the problem is getting worse. It is speculated that it is, which could be caused by several factors.

In my case my wife is a childhood sex abuse survivor, which is a well known high (extremely high actually) risk factor to predict abusive women. I have seen a lot. I also was in the survivor community for about ten years and hung out with a lot of other husbands and boyfriends of CSA survivors, the stories of what these guys went through that they would never dream of telling a regular friend or the police would curl your toes. We share stories because we trust each other to keep our mouths shut, and because we have the same background so we have an easy understanding.

However, I have lived in lots of different army bases and off post quarters, I am very familiar with being aware of abuse in the neighborhood, which presumably has nothing to do with CSA...in my life aggressive intimate relationship is very normal. I shudder to think of all the people who would have ended up in jail if the zealots had had their way.

I actually cant think of a single case where only one party would have benefited from counseling..they always both could use some new insights and ideas for new tactics. This idea that we are going to pick a victim to coddle and make the other a perp makes zero sense to me. It seems barbaric and not useful to anyone. So far as I can see there is not a shred of evidence that our lock up the guys program works at all, much less that it works better that counseling and education of both parties would. I think it is high time we backed up about 20 steps and took a new look at the problem.

My one overriding desire after this event was to get her out of my life as fast as possible at any cost.

Up to that point my desire for a divorce was not set in concrete but the very idea that she would had assaulted me and then turn it around 180 degrees was the very last straw.

By the way the very first case of a married couple who husband was try for rape inside a marriage in the US he was found not only not guilty but then the couple got back together!

How in the hell do you sleep with someone again who try to get you lock up for decades?

Women are not the only insane ones when if come to relationships.

Same way as those who have suffered long-term abuse / torture / assault - obviously people do it all the time. Can't argue with demonstrable fact.

This switch from the general (law and jurisprudence) to the particular (cases directly or indirectly known to you personally) is actually useful in that on the latter topic, at least, you know what you're talking about. For the record however please note that the specific legislation you singled out as favoring women over men (VAWA) is now known to apply equally to men/women/homosexuals, married, co-habiting, or dating, so your prior objection is demonstrably groundless. But I'm interested in your view of "counseling" - what does it consist of, exactly, and in what way(s) does it help?

True it is just that I can in no way understand why anyone would do so not that they in fact do so.

In the same way that you can't understand that rape is wrong.

I don't know that introducing morality (or religion) advances the dialogue in any way. Applicable law and reliable statistics seem to me to be way to go; concepts of "right" and "wrong" are by definition personal - the other 2 items can be conclusively demonstrated. Besides - all Plato's dialogues start with Socrates saying "let us first define the terms" for a reason. Concepts of what constitutes rape vary widely - even before getting to proof.

What the hell are you talking about? Where did I introduce religion in the discussion?

Get off your high horse, High Seas.

"Morality" - did you introduce that? If not, please provide incontrovertible proof of difference between "right" and "wrong".

No, I did not introduce that. In any case, perhaps you could explain why you consider morality or right and wrong as you put it not to be applicable to this thread.

And....just how did this post of yours advance the dialogue?

Nothing more boring than people who quote themselves, so for an answer to both your questions please re-read the post:
http://able2know.org/topic/158723-40#post-4298906

Actually, there is nothing more boring that reading your inane posts. Are you actually intending to post on the topic of this thread?

Hawkeye, this sort of research goes on all the time. It really is not as neglected an area as you are suggesting. There has always been interest in studying aggressive behaviors. All animals can be aggressive. There are lots of studies that look at differences in the manner that males and females display aggression, and the differences in why it is displayed. It has been evident for some time that, in certain cultures, the incidence of female violence/aggression may be increasing, and that the type of aggressive behavior displayed by females may be changing. And not all of this aggression is displayed toward male partners, some of it is displayed toward other females. Doing this sort of research can be a very lengthy process, particularly when it is done cross-culturally, and that's one reason studies may be slow to come to publication.

But I really would like to return to our original topic of rape.

Hawkeye, you raised an excellent point when you mentioned the social stigma that might affect men who are abused. Society might view these men negatively, and the men might be very reluctant to report the fact of their abuse. And maybe the man who reports abuse wouldn't even be taken seriously. Even a trial of the abuser might be humiliating for the men to go through.

If you understand all of that, then you should be able to understand the situation for a female rape victim, particularly a victim of date rape. She faces all kind of social stigmas, and negative evaluations of her, which may also prevent her from reporting the crime, or law enforcement from taking it seriously, or juries from believing her, and which would make the legal/court process another ordeal for her.

Since we have finally found a point of mutual agreement, and a meeting of the minds, can we go back to the original topic and consider these issues with regard to rape? And can we focus on the victim of rape and not the issue of false accusations or confusions about consent? False allegations, while very important, have already been well covered in this thread. I don't know what more can be said that would be meaningful and would advance the discussion. Confusions about consent really have to be clarified by how the laws are written.

And I really would not like to lose this opportunity to discuss rape victims and social stigmas and social stereotypes from a perspective we can all understand. I've never been interested in trying to win an argument, or make a case with this topic. I posted the topic because I hoped we could find some ways of addressing the problem, ways of dealing with the social stigmas and social stereotypes that go along with being a rape victim and how these victims are viewed. Because if we can do that, we can help other victims of other crimes, like males who are abused by females, who face these same sorts of gender related stigmas.

So, I ask you, what do you think men can do, or should be doing, to help counter the negative social stigma, and rape apologist attitudes, that do affect the victims of rape, particularly non stranger rape? I think male input into this problem is very important. I'm inclined to think men may be able to do more than women in affecting and changing public attitudes, including the attitudes of law enforcement and juries. When men really start speaking out, I think people will take the issue very seriously.

So, what should men be doing? How can they help combat the rape apologist attitudes and stigmas that are prevalent in the culture?

the fact that women abuse men is not a new story, just a very under reported one

in my mind the irony of the situation is, men don't report being abused for the very reason they don't want women reporting abuse, some twisted sense of pride/embarrassment, "don't nobody need to know what goes on in this family", type crap

No, it's not just that.

Men don't want to be regarded as a weakling for taking abuse from a woman. So they are embarrassed about reporting it.

A woman may not want to be thought of as a slut, or as having "asked for it" when she is raped, so she might be embarrassed about reporting it.

These social stigmas/stereotypes relating to gender operate in both those cases.

That is why I would like Hawkeye's input, and everyone else's, in how men can help to counter these stigmas/gender stereotypes and rapist apologist attitudes, when it comes to societal perceptions of female rape victims. I think that men could make a crucial difference in helping to change these attitudes.

Rapists make it difficult for women to trust honest, nice guys. Rapists not only do physical and mental harm and trauma to their victims, but they contribute to preventing them from having meaningful relationships in the future and deprive other men of the benefit of having a meaningful relationship with their victims.

Rape and abuse and two different things. Men who are abused are not (usually) raped. Many women who are abused are also raped. Making comparison between the two is, therefore, not an easy matter.

Quite apart from that valid consideration, men reporting abuse are laughed at. Here in NY Liza Minelli's husband sued her on these grounds and was practically laughed out of court. However in that case he was asking for monetary damages - probably another factor. Some years ago an Italian hitchhiker, picked up by a car with 3 Swedish models driving home from their work at the Milan fashion shows, walked into a police station in Switzerland and filed a complaint of gang rape. The car - by then in Germany - was located, the 3 models appeared before a Swiss magistrate, admitted to the sequence of events, but said that they thought he had agreed. The 2 parties didn't have a language in common. Italian tabloids ran extra printings throughout that trial, with the picture of the man overlaid with labels that need no translation ("stupido" and "cretino") alongside pictures of the 3 models from the Milan runways. I don't remember the court decision, but it does require bravery for a man to bring such a complaint.

I'm not comparing abuse and rape. I'm trying to get back to the topic of rape.

Hawkeye recognized that men have problems reporting it when they are abused by women in a domestic situation, because of the often negative way society may view a man abused by a woman. The man may share negative views of himself for the same reason.

The exact same thing is true for the female victim of a rape, particularly a date rape.The victim may be viewed negatively, and she may share these views of herself. And the woman may not report the rape crime for reasons very similar to those of the male victim of female domestic abuse.

So I'm asking how men can help in changing rape apologist attitudes (she's a slut, she asked for it, etc) in the public arena. I suspect that most campaigns to address rape issues have been designed by women. Can men bring something to these campaigns which will help to change these negative attitudes toward rape victims which might keep them from reporting these crimes?

Hawkeye and I finally have some area of agreement--he can understand that gender is a factor in whether a crime gets reported, and how the victim is treated by law enforcement. So, I'd like to see if he, or other men, can bring that same understanding to bear on the problem of rape with a female victim..