Hey, Can A Woman "Ask To Get Raped"?

Actually, we have discussed this earlier in this thread. The thread is too long to be able to go back and hunt up the links.

The law describes the act of rape.

Females may describe an encounter that fits the legal definition of rape, but they may not use the word "rape" to describe it. There are many reasons a female might do this. One is that she might be ignorant of what the law says. Another is that she doesn't want to admit that she has been the victim of "a rape" because of embarrassment, humiliation, stigma, and self blame.

I think there were only two major studies to gather information on this sort of thing. In one of them, the question was more like, "Have you ever been raped?". When asked in that form, more women were likely to answer in the negative. In the second study, the women were given a description of a coerced sexual encounter, that matched the legal description of rape, without the word "rape" being mentioned, and they were asked if they had experienced that. When asked the question in that manner, many more women reported experiences that fit the legal definition of rape, that indicated they had been raped.

So, it's not just how women feel about certain sexual encounters, it also appears to be that labeling these encounters as "rape" is difficult for many women, even when the sex was unwanted, and left them feeling abused.

Similarly, statistics on reporting rapes can be gained by comparing the rate of reporting to the number of women who report having had sexual encounters that fit the legal description of rape in surveys.

Sorry neither you nor the silly surveys creators are lawyers and the only thing that result is the labeling of normal and legal and in most cases loving sexual relationships as rape in order to get the crazy numbers you seem to love so very must is to insult adults women.

See below what silliness they can consider rape if a man whine<pestering>, promise that he will love her forever<IE offer a reward> and on and on.

In other word any strong verbal pressure with no threat of force or force needed is good enough for these fools.

<nonphysical punishment> as in if we do not have sex I will go back with Mary Ann

Off hand I do not know one man who had not at one time or another pester his sexual partner for sex therefore all men under this logic repeat all men are rapists


www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

contact
without force

Any type of unwanted completed sexual contact (not pene-
tration) with the threat of nonphysical punishment, promise
of reward, or pestering/verbal pressure. Sexual contact
includes: touching; grabbing or fondling of breasts, buttocks,
or genitals, either under or over your clothes; kissing; licking
or sucking; or some other form of unwanted sexual contact.

Wow Robert; one long repetitive ad hominem attack on my person is all you’ve offered by way of argument, while heaping scorn upon me for my gratuitous use of same. It’s usually you telling others that’s no way to argue… but I guess it’s different when you do it. How hypocritical can one man be? Since you felt the need to attack my person as the wannabe white knight (what, about a dozen times in a single post, as if repetition of personal insults adds strength to your argument), let’s go ahead and address that:

Guilty as charged (without all the gratuitous insults of creepiness, added purely as a juvenile attack on my person.) The truth is, for anyone actually interested in the truth, my instinctual white knight tendencies are in no way limited to abused women… and everyone familiar with my posting history knows this. I advocate no less emphatically for children, blacks, Hispanics, illegal aliens, gays, and every other group I see as unfairly victimized. Mindless bigotry is at least as big of catalyst as demented misogyny for my white-knight tendencies. I’ve made a hell of a lot more posts related to illegal immigration than any other single group, for instance. You probably already know this; you’re just choosing to behave like a dick.

While it’s easy for the disgruntled to paint me as a poser for taking the stands I do, this is who I am both online and in real life, and I’ll offer no apologies for it. My charitable contributions reflect it and even the direction I steer the firm I manage in reflect the exact same thing. Poor Black/Hispanic people are the most frequent beneficiaries of my white-knight syndrome (while we earn a living representing mostly well to do white people), as the illegal searches performed after bogus Terry stops for being black on a Saturday night irk me to my core. I tangle with insurance companies (frequently at a loss from a fiscal time-management standpoint) purely because it makes me feel better about me… and in too many cases if we won’t accept them no one will.

In the coming weeks, I will be relocating my offices to new luxury digs downtown, big enough to accommodate a crew of a dozen, because contrary to your relentless claims; I’m actually pretty good at what I do. Unlike the demented trolls; you are perfectly welcome to come and visit anytime, and I’ll let you peruse a file cabinet chuck full of my white-knight efforts. Milwaukee also offers the Potawatomi Casino just minutes from my office where you can play limit or no limit poker to your heart’s content.

As for your phony suspicions about my having anything to do with sock puppets; use your head man. What kind of a ******* idiot would report an abusive behavior that he himself was participating in? Do I honestly strike you as that stupid? Or are you letting your emotions override your common sense (or integrity)? This is just another bogus attempt to attack me personally. Since you keep making reference to our private discussion, before choosing to blast me publically on your personal vendetta; let’s make that public too so everyone can judge for themselves whether or not I appear complicit in sock-puppet gaming:


This would have been the end of this discussion had you not decided to attack me publicly.

As for your continued insistence that I can't codify a rule that would accurately target trolls; I already have... you just don't want to admit it, because it is precisely as easy as I said it would be: He who targets innocents for abuse should be dealt with in some way or other to discourage this type of trolling.

When Cyclo, Set, Finn, Robert, myself, etc. choose to trade shots in the political forums, that is a far cry from RM and Shorteyes’ deliberate targeting of BBB, Firefly or Arella May. The two of them relentlessly responded to virtually every single post made by calling them liars, lesbians, rape-feminists, and made disgusting remarks to and about any and every woman who shared their own horror stories. It doesn't take a genius to determine their intent was not to provide an opposing opinion, or to engage in a free exchange of ideas, but rather to emotionally injure the targets of their demented misogyny. This constitutes text-book trolling:
Robert knows this, and so would anyone intelligent enough to have been selected as a moderator, but in order to attack me he has to pretend he doesn't recognize this repugnant behavior as trolling. Meanwhile, no rational human being who actually followed this thread would have trouble distinguishing the demented duo's obvious purpose. Robert says he hasn't read the thread, but knows (instinctively I guess) that I have been MUCH WORSE! This is nonsense of course, as I routinely went many pages, on many occasions ignoring the trolls and encouraging others to do the same (as Deb suggested)... brought mountains of data over to refute the mountains of misinformation they spammed the thread with, all to no avail. An exchange of ideas was never the true intent; causing emotional injury was... which again, is text-book trolling by any measure.

All of this could have been avoided with moderation of any kind. Most effective would obviously be to simply recognize trolling for what it is and sanction the offenders. Second best, and probably easiest to implement without violating his distaste for top-down management, would be to institute his thoughts about letting a thread creator moderate their own thread. Were this the case, none of my so-called trolling would have happened at all, because Firefly would long ago have neutralized the real trolls.

I lack familiarity with forum code, and therefore can't know how much filters would consume infrastructurally, but given the raw data I'm pretty sure I could come up with a set of if/then arguments that would effectively neutralize the worst offenders which to me, and I would think the majority of people, is the deliberate targeting innocents for abuse. (Attacking an over-opinionated ass like myself, for instance, is obviously less offensive than attacking someone who attacks no one.)

Where a popularity metric is going to be difficult in the politics or religious forums, due to expected heat and hyper-opinionization, this is simply not so (or shouldn't be) in the more sensitive forums where people discuss various personal issues like abuse. In these sensitive forums, consistently unpopular submissions would likely put a pretty accurate bead on he who shows up to be disruptive and disgusting. A more elaborate array of arguments could be fashioned to give a higher weight to voters whose votes tend to coincide with the majority of poster's (and lesser weight to those that don't), triggering collapses at a faster rate for posters whose content is generally not well received on this type of subject matter. And in the end-game this same data could be used to first warn a poster and then to ultimately restrict their ability to post in sensitive forums altogether. I can only assume some human input would be required, if only to identify some key words that would trigger the software to distinguish advice/abuse threads from the rest of the site. I can imagine there being subsets of trigger words in tags for various categories that would trigger the software to make educated guesses.

I was previously under the impression that the above described automatic moderation was Robert’s end goal (holy grail) with community based moderation, but that was before he inexplicably decided there is no trolling issue to begin with… except for my complaints about same, of course.

Sock-puppets aside; look at the relative popularity of random posts on any sensitive subject, and you'll likely see pretty clearly that the community is pretty good at distinguishing worthwhile advice from demented trolling BS.

Finally, you pilers on that I should leave well enough alone, can all join Robert in kissing my ass. I do not believe a single one of you would take that giant helping of repetitive personal insult in silence.

Ps. I thought "Troll lover" was funny. Shrugs.

******* epic personality back-and-forth here

Cycloptichorn

I, personally, am not asking you to take it silence. What I am asking is that you have the decency to move this debate about forum decorum and policies to a different thread rather than continually adding salt on the wounds you rightly point to. Scream and rant and point fingers back and forth as much as you want. Just have the ability to recognize that what you are currently perpetuating is not helping to enable the participants to resume their discussion in this topic.

You'll also remove a lot of the distraction so people will be able to more easily see exactly what is currently occurring here. No one has the time or desire to browse through 200 pages of discussion and 50 pages of posts about the decorum to understand what occurred in the past. Clear the decks and let the asses have a better opportunity of exposure now that you've got some folks looking in.

That's certainly reasonable enough, and you have my apology for my brusque commentary.

Apparently you are a bit confused by the difference between sexual abuse and verbal abuse.

What a strong woman Julie Weil is. Thank God she was able to get the help she needed, not only for herself, but also for her family and now for other rape victims/survivors. It's a long and hard road to recovery from rape, harder for those that have been subjected to some of the violence we have read about, than for others, but a long road indeed.

Thank you for posting that about her. It is very encouraging.

I am not a bit confuse it is the creators of those stupid brain death surveys who do not know the difference my friend!!!!!

How else do you think that they can get the silly numbers they are getting by the way? Hint they combined any verbal abuses along with physical abuse all in one large container of bullshit.

Look up the new UK survey on domestic abuse and laugh at what they consider fall under the label of domestic abuses.

I have created a thread for this argument and will reply to you there:

Should able2know ban people for having untoward opinions?
http://able2know.org/topic/163156-1

Thank you for starting the other thread. It is much appreciated.

Butrflynet responded to OccomBill

You are certainly correct in your assessment. However, I feel that you response should have been to both Robert and Bill rather than Bill alone. Their debate is a two way street.

I am gone so far as the subject goes, and only came back because of the troll talk.

Butterfly's argument about "salt in the wound" holds no water though...this is a discussion about how this society should deal with sexual transgression, andwhat to do about those who hold the perception of being victimized by sexual transgression. If people are here who feel personally offended or damaged by this discussion should stay the **** away from this discussion. Their fragile state can not be allowed the deter debate about what sound and productive policy would look like, or about the failures of of current approaches. As Bill pointed out Firefly started this thread to grind her sexual politics axe,this thread was never about how to heal from abuse, if those people who have been abuse who feel offended by the thread what to talk about those things then they should start a thread about the subject. More productively they should go to one of the many sites that are set up for victims and survivors. Butterfly's assertion that only what the victims can tolorate should be discussed is a form of bullying, it is an massive contraint on debate, it would if we followed her desire make arriving at sound policy and good practices almost impossible. Her position is that we must follow the victim culture, we must let the weakest amoungst us decide what can be talked about. what can be done.

I say no, if fact I say HELL NO! I realize that this will get me called an asshole. And those who call me that are in my opinion damn fools.

Oh I pray no one in your family has anything tragic happen to them and someone shows the lack of compassion and common decency you displayed.

You did not merely discuss or try to refute posts. You personally attacked a rape victim in a thoroughly disgusting and perverted manner.

My wife was sexually tortured for three years as a child with her abuser brother killing himself and her mother walking in on the act and then claiming that she never saw anything..... both of my girls were molested as kids, one of them raped in the old definition at the age of 8 YO, I am surrounded by the ramifications of sexual transgression, and while you think am a sack of **** for my opinions I have 25 years of loving and caring for sexual abuse survivors experience to know that my way works. I wasted 10 years with the coddling that is prescribed by the saviour community, and it was a massive failure. It was only when I rejected the program that I saw the women that I love heal and prosper.

My opinions are unorthodox, but my approach works. It is only because we are virtual and you dont know my life that you and the rest get away with claiming that I hate women and the rest. Nobody in my life, no one who knows me we say that, they almost all say that I have the patience of a saint and that they could never have dealt with all the pain and heartbreak that I have lived. I am now surrounded my strong and successful women, and these women and those others who know me know that they are strong and successful in large part BECAUSE of me.

IF all that happened in your life you would understand why your comment to BBB was so disgusting and out of line.

Here comes the sympathy card with nobody understands me in bold print.

I hope the hell you are looking for that post of mine where you claimed I stated I have a child porn collection.

Look like you are going to be joining Firefly in being ban short term<grin>.

I dont recall the conversation...I would be suprised if I did anything other than use her comments or experience as a jumping off point for an opinion on how we could deal with sexual trangression better.

Do you recall when or where this happened? I would love to look into it.