THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

Let's not tip toe around this. If you believe that the United States should not have initiated its military action against Iraq, then you believe that Saddam Hussein should have been left to do whatever it is he was doing as the Iraqi dictator. Simple linear logic.

Let's not tip toe around this. If you believe that the United States should not have initiated its military action against Iraq, then you believe that Saddam Hussein should have been left to do whatever it is he was doing as the Iraqi dictator. Simple linear logic.

To say that you oppose the very action that deposed the dictator is to say that you would prefer that Saddam still be in power.

Don't give me that "Yes, I'm glad that Saddam is out of power, but we shouldn't have done this" nonsense.

This is like telling a friend "Yes, I'm glad to see that that nasty little compound fracture of your left leg is healed, but I'm still really upset with you for going to a doctor."

If you didn't want your friend to go to a doctor, then you didn't want your friend's leg to heal.

If you didn't want the US to take military action against Saddam Hussein, then you didn't want him deposed. You wanted him to remain in power.

"The Arab world is watching these developments with shock. For their regimes, this is a terrifying lesson," wrote Guy Bechor in the Yediot Ahronot daily. Ben Caspit wrote in the Maariv daily that the arrest would put "renewed energy" into American involvement and strengthen the stalled "road map" peace plan.

That is about the stupidest thing I have seen posted here. And it is patently false.

That's true. But would you really like to defend the "logic" you posted?

It would be pretty ugly.

Example:

Person A wants to kill 5 babies and feed them to Baby B.

Person C does not want to.


Person A says: "If you want Babies to be fed you must support killing 5 babies" and "If you do not support killing 5 babies you do not support feeding Baby B."

The assumption in the "linear logic" touted is that there is only one choice. Bush is fond of using this convoluted brand of logic and many who support this war play along.

It's frequently termed as a choice between "action" or "inaction". Which is unwarranted.

Secondly much opposition relates to the things completely unrelated to disposing Saddam.

For example:

The questions "Do you want to get rid of Saddam? " and "Do you want to invade Iraq?" are simply not equal.

It is the same as assuming that these two questions are equal:

"Do you want 5 bucks?" and "Do you want 5 bucks in exchange for your leg?"

The logic touted there is the equivalent of saying that if you don't want to lose your leg you also do not want money.

Well, if that's the only way they will give you the 5 bucks, than I would say that you didn't want it after all.

Do you want to get rid of saddam? Yes? How? Write him a nice letter asking him to step down? Make economic sanctions against him? Have the UN place repeated resolutions telling him "Step down or else!"? It seems to me that the world tried to get rid of saddam and failed. So, how do you get rid of Saddam?

BTW Timber, scheck out today's AP news report titled "Many Palestinians lament Saddam's downfall".

There is so much to contradict the connection you allege that I am baffled that you'd post it.

Baker's mission to relieve Iraqi debt woes may be having more success than would be convenient to the prejuduces of some:

Quote:

US welcomes help from Germany, France on Iraq debt[/b]
Tue December 16, 2003 01:30 PM ET


WASHINGTON, Dec 16 (Reuters) - The White House said on Tuesday it welcomed commitments by Germany and France to help rebuild Iraq and reduce its debt burden, and said the United States would "do our part as well."
"We appreciate the commitments they made on the need to restructure and reduce the debt burden," White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters.

A German government spokesman said Germany, France and the United States agreed they were prepared to offer substantial debt relief to Iraq to aid the country's reconstruction.

McClellan would not say what Washington would commit to the debt reduction initiative, but added, "We'll do our part as well."

"The United States is the one that led this effort to remove the regime from power. We have made significant contributions along with coalition forces," McClellan said.

"We remain committed to seeing that through and we will see it through. ... I think you can continue to expect the United States to do our part to help the Iraqi people."

U.S. special envoy James Baker is in Europe seeking support for a debt relief deal for Iraq and trying to ease a trans-Atlantic row over contracts to rebuild Iraq.

© Reuters 2003. All Rights Reserved.

Meanwhile, in Iraq, overall attacks are down ;

Quote:

... Kimmitt said there were 18 engagements between Iraqi guerrillas and U.S.-led coalition forces in the past week, a marked decline over previous weeks.

"These numbers are significantly lower than recent norms, although we anticipate and are fully prepared for any upturn in attacks in the days and weeks ahead," he said ...

Things appear to be going unwell for those who posit that things are not going well.

PM: SECRET SITES FOUND

Tony Blair says "massive evidence" of secret weapons laboratories have been unearthed in Iraq.

The Prime Minister made the announcement in an interviewed on the British Forces Broadcasting Service.


He said the Coalition's Iraq Survey Group - which is hunting for weapons of mass destruction - made the discovery.

He did not go into detail, but said the findings were part of the interim report produced by the survey group several months ago.

"It has already found massive evidence of huge system of clandestine laboratories, workings by scientists, plans to develop long range ballistic missiles", Mr Blair said.

Before the war began, the Government had used Saddam Hussein's alleged weapons of mass destruction as the main reason for going to war in Iraq...cont.

... Kimmitt said there were 18 engagements between Iraqi guerrillas and U.S.-led coalition forces in the past week, a marked decline over previous weeks.

"These numbers are significantly lower than recent norms, although we anticipate and are fully prepared for any upturn in attacks in the days and weeks ahead," he said ...

Grand Ayatullah as-Sayyid Ali al-Hussaini as-Seestani
as-Sayyid as-Seestani [also known as Al-Udhma Al-Sayyid Al-Seestani or as-Sayyid Ali al-Hussaini as-Seestani] was born in Rabi'ul Awwal, 1349 A.H. (1930 A.D.) in Mash'had where the Shrine of Imam Ali ar-Ridha (a.s.). His family is said to be known for its knowledge, piety and commitment. He was brought up in the tradition of Shia Muslims clerics and scholars.

After studying the preliminary (muqqadimat) and secondary (sutooh) levels, he studied rational sciences, and divine knowledge under the supervision of a number of doctors of that parochial school. He attended the research of externals (bahtel-Kharij)- graduation classes- in the same theological college. He modeled himself after the late al-Mirza Mahdi al-Asfahani a scholar and textual critic. He then moved to Qom, centre for religious learning during the lifetime of its rector, the supreme religious authority the late Grand Ayatullah as-Sayyid Hussain al-Burujardi in 1368 A.H. where he studied jurisprudence under him. He made use of al-Burujurdis juristic expertise and his theories in the "biographies of transmitters of hadith (Prophetic traditions). He also attended the lecture of the late jurist al-Kuhkamari.

In 1371 A.H. as-Sayyid as-Seestani moved to Najaf Holy City where the famous parochial school is located. He continued attending study circles of men of thought and knowledge such as Imam al-Hakim, as-Shaikh Hussain al-Hilli and Imam Al-Khoee. He regularly attended Imam al-Khoee's lectures in jurisprudence and fundamentals of jurisprudence for over 10 years. As for ash-Shaikh al-Hilli, he studied under his supervision one complete study course in jurisprudence.

Acording to some, As-Sayyid as-Seestani excelled beyond his peers, especially in the force-fullness of his interjections, his quick wit, his prolific research in jurisprudence, biographies of transmitters, and his keeping abreast with many theories in different fields of theological sciences.

There used to be competition between Martyr Ayatullah Mohammed Baqir as-Sadr and him. In 1380 A.H. and in recognition of his achievements he was awarded a permit by Imam Al-Khoee and another by ash-Shaik al-Hilli, certifying that he had attained the level of (ijtihad)- deduction of legal judgment in matters of religion. In the same year he was awarded a diploma by the distinguished traditionalist and scholar ash-Shaikh Agha Buzurg at-Tahrani testifying to his skill in the science of "ilmerrijal" biographies of 'hadith', prophetic traditions, narrators and that of 'hadith'. He was then 31 years of age.

Unlike traditional clerics who follow literally what they have been taught, as-Sayyid as-Seestani's approach to juristic principles is characterized by lending weight to some of these principles by reinterpreting them.

Unlike traditional professors of theology who have no tendency for inventiveness, as-Sayyid as-Seestani and Martyr as-Sayyid as-Sadr are in a class of their own. They go to greater lengths to give the answer to a problem with the need for and interest of research in mind. For instance as-Sayyid as-Seestani approached the problem of the usage of the word in different meanings; the fundamentalist discussed it from the perspective of possibility and impossibility, as a rational and philosophical research, whereas he discussed it from the perspective of incidence and incidence because such a discussion offers the strongest proof of possibility.

Comparison between the different schools of thought in order to put forward a sound study for any subject, as-Sayyid as-Seestani compares his findings with those of al-Mirza Mahdi al-Asfahani, representing Mashhad school of though, as-sayyid al-Burujardi, of Qom, and the three textual critics, as-Sayyid al-Khoee, and ash-Shaikh Hussain al-Hilli, representing Najaf.

As-Sayyid as-Seestani is of the opinion that a jurist cannot be called as such unless he has acquired all the necessary expertise to enable him to do so. Among such vehicles is the mastery of Arabic, full knowledge of the traditions of the Prophet and his Progeny and detailed accounts of their narrators for the science of biographies of transmitters of "hadith" is a prerequisite tool for the jurist to achieve authenticity. In this respect he holds opinions which may go against what is universally held.

As-Sayyid as-Seestani interprets practice on the basis of "respect (ihtiram)" i.e. showing respect for others peoples laws and opinions. He has based his interpretation on the freedom of expression.

Some professors of an-Najaf center for theological studies (Hawzat - an-Najaf) were quoted as saying that after the death of a-Sayyid Nasrullah al-Mustanbit they advised the late as-Sayyid al-Khoee to groom someone for the office of the supreme religious authority and the rectorship of Najaf Parochial School. Acording to some, the choice fell on as-Sayyid as-Seestani for his merits, knowledge, probility and impeccable character. He then started leading the prayer in Imam al-Khoee's mosque -- al-Khadra -- during his life time, writing his annotation on as-Sayyid al-Khoee's manual acts of worship. After the passing away of as-Sayyid al-Khoee, he was among the six persons who took part in his funeral, and performed the service on the dead body.

When trials and tribulations are deployed to serving the personal ends of some specific cleric, or the general climate experience acrimonious propaganda warfare fanned by mutual enmity and envy, the ulema of the parochial school (al-Hawza al-Ilmiyah), among whom is as-Sayyid as-Seestani, prefer silence and refrain from entering the fray. Such was the state of affairs in the aftermath of the death of as-Sayyid al-Hakim and as-Sayyid al-Burujurdi, and history repeated itself after the departure of as-Sayyid al-Khoee where competition and jockeying for titles and positions became rife.

It is said that, As-Sayyid as-Seestani's contenment and humility is reflected in his simple attire, the small house in which he lives but does not own, and the simple furniture therein.

Central Command (CENTCOM) deputy director of operations Brigadier General Vincent Brooks said during a April 03 2003, press briefing in Qatar that Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, a Shia source of emulation based in Najaf, has issued a fatwa "instructing the population to remain calm and to not interfere with coalition actions." Brooks also described "evidence of other religious leaders that have had enough of this regime, and in due time they will speak out." Brooks' statement was followed by contradictory ones, as well as comments about the confusion that reigns in Najaf. Sistani's office issued a statement denying that the cleric has issued a fatwa calling on Iraqis not to resist coalition forces, Al-Jazeera satellite television reported on April 3. Lebanese Hizballah's Al-Manar television also reported on April 3 that it could not confirm "the truth about the aforementioned [fatwa]," citing "parties [contacted] through our own channels." Muhammad Bahr al-Ulum, a spokesman for the London-based Al-Khoi Foundation, said in an April 3 interview with Al-Jazeera that "our sources say that complete confusion prevails in Najaf...[w]e have no one who could go to Ayatollah Sistani to ask him for a religious ruling." Al-Ulum added that "what we have heard" is that the ayatollah wants the Iraqi people not to resist coalition forces. The Khoi Foundation on 4 April announced that it still had not confirmed the fatwa, IRNA reported, and added that it is in touch with Abd-al-Majid al-Khoi in Najaf to clarify the situation. "Al-Sharq al-Awsat" reported on the same day that US forces facilitated the return to Najaf of Abd-al-Majid al-Khoi and other Iraqi exiles in order to win the religious community's support.

On May 27 2003, he issued a fatwa prohibiting the killing of former Iraqi officials or Baathists involved in torturing or arbitrarily arresting Iraqis.