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THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 07:12 am
The drive through was closed? Smile

I was suprised at the small amount ... I say small compared to the amount he had available.

If it was staged the 'stagers' wouldn't leave him buck naked with no means.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 08:32 am
gozmo wrote:
Bill,

I've read many of your posts and you don't change beat. You want war, you think your country has a right to start war, you think targets of agression benefit from war and you discount the victims of war. You see yourself as morally superior and you invest that superiority in the US. Explain to me why when the US is the aggressor that's OK but others are criminals. I consider the US has a poor record in International Relations and if it were not for its "wemza" mass destruction it would be irrelevant in these matters. I think you are rationalising your opinions by suggesting koreans will benefit. I'm not surprised by this, you only follow the example of your government.
I do consider myself morally superior to those who murder innocent people. I do consider my country morally superior to regimes who advocate murdering innocent people. Collateral damage is a cold, ugly term, but serves a definitive purpose none the less. It is applicable here. The difference between our attacks and the attack I categorize as criminal are the intended targets. Key word being intended. Purposely targeting civilians for the exclusive purpose of killing civilians is criminal. Attacking targets of strategic military importance is not, even though there is inevitable collateral damage.
gozmo wrote:

There are 6Bn people on this earth of whom less than 5% are US citizens. You appear to think that minority's government ought be the arbiter of world affairs.
I believe the ability to help a would-be victim of a horrible crime comes with it the responsibility to do so. I believe this in my personal life and I would like it if my country would do the same. I didn't adapt this reasoning when the white house did; it was my the reason for my supporting the war from the beginning. I have an audio clip of an Iraqi-American woman that I'd love to share with you or anyone else who will hear it. I think you would understand me better if you did. Anyone interested in hearing it, please PM me an email address. I'm too inept at web-posting to figure out how to post it that way.
gozmo wrote:

I understand your statements but disagree most strongly.

I understand your position as well. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 09:02 am
Quote:
ain't nothing fer sure except ........... Clark and Clinton in ought four


Ge, I assume you meant to write Clinton/Clark in '04.... Cool
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 09:08 am
gozmo wrote:
Why would they leave the kalisnikovs? Because they were well rewarded for it.

If someone offered me 10bn so long as I left 2bn in a public toilet, I would oblige.
Good point!
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 10:27 am
Kara wrote:
Quote:
ain't nothing fer sure except ........... Clark and Clinton in ought four


Ge, I assume you meant to write Clinton/Clark in '04.... Cool


No, but I reserve the right to make the change a little closer to Nov.. Clark is running third @12% right now. Wink
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 02:10 pm
I wuz jokin, Buddy. She's too much of a hawk for me, probably because she feels she must look and act that way to ever get elected as a woman.

And who knows. As you say, it is a while yet. I'm still waiting for my white knight or knightess to show up....
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 03:12 pm
An example from the "Come back with your shield or on it," file.She's dead, but she's a heeeeeerooooo
Quote:
"She died and she's a hero, how great is that?" said her mother, Carol A. Fahnestock. "I know she's in heaven. She's not lost to us. She's just in a different place."


and:
Remind anyone of the SS?
Quote:
Captain Karl Pfuetze:

"I tell you when I see an Iraqi with a weapon and I just shoot him. There's no such thing as celebratory fire."



Quote:
First Sergeant Mikel:

"Whether you know other people other Americans who believe its right or wrong it's irrelevant to us - it's not our job to question the commander in chief. The boss, President Bush said go and we'll cut out own throats for President Bush. That's the bottom line "


I don't know about anyone else here, but I find these two stories really quite chilling!
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 03:42 pm
Dangerous times.
The war mentality is indeed chilling. I am reading a book, "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning" by Chris Hedges.

"The rush of battle is a potent and often lethal addiction, for war is a drug."

There are many statements in this book that are profound but as I am on the lazy side I won't take time and energy to post them. I highly recommend this book. It is stunning!!!
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 03:53 pm
Excellent book!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 04:05 pm
The wiscom of children. Maybe, just maybe, GWBush knows something.
How Do You Get To Heaven?

"If I sold my house and my car, had a big garage sale, and gave all my money to the church, would that get me into heaven?" I asked the children in my Sunday school class. "NO!" the children all answered.

"If I cleaned the church every day, mowed the yard, and kept everything neat and tidy, would that get me into heaven?" Again the answer was, "NO!"

"Well, then, if I was kind to animals and gave candy to all the children and loved my wife, would that get me into heaven?" I asked them again. Once more they all answered, "NO!"

"Well," I continued, thinking they were a good bit more theologically sophisticated than I had given them credit for, "then how can I get into heaven?"

A five-year-old boy shouted out, "You gotta be dead!"
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 04:13 pm
hb and pistoff, I haven't read that book but I have read many such thoughts and convictions, some quoting older men saying that nothing in their life was ever as exciting as war and that ordinary life paled next to their battle experiences. I guess it would be difficult to equal, in sheer intensity, a time when you could die at any moment and a time when you would either prove yourself brave or a coward, and maybe you wouldn't know the answer yourself until the moment arrived.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 05:18 pm
Kara wrote:
I wuz jokin, Buddy. She's too much of a hawk for me, probably because she feels she must look and act that way to ever get elected as a woman.

And who knows. As you say, it is a while yet. I'm still waiting for my white knight or knightess to show up....

I know ....but she and Clark together should shame Bush even more than Bill shamed poppa Bush ....
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 05:24 pm
The Supreme Court ruled there cannot be a nativity scene in Washington,
D.C. this Christmas. This isn't for any religious or constitutional reason, they simply have not been able to find three wise men and a virgin in the nation's capitol.
There was no problem however finding enough asses to fill the stable.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 05:31 pm
CI, you sure are full of the old p&v tonight Smile
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 05:41 pm
LMAO ci, I'm sending that one to my friends... Thanks.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 05:44 pm
Quote:
'Twas The Night... On Ice.


http://www.theonion.com/images/333/article2421.jpg

Above: U.S. soldiers instruct an Iraqi to tell Santa what he wants for Christmas.

Quote:
Immediately following the press conference, high-altitude bombers began to string Christmas lights throughout the greater-Baghdad area, and Wild Weasel electronic-warfare fighter jets initiated 24-hour air patrols to broadcast Bing Crosby's "White Christmas" over the nation. Armored columns struck out from all major allied firebases to erect a Christmas tree in the town square of every city, while foot soldiers placed fully lit, heavily guarded nativity scenes in front of every Iraqi mosque.

"Thus far, Operation Desert Santa has gone off without a hitch," said Gen. Stanley Kimmet, commander of U.S. armed reconnaissance-and-mistletoe operations in the volatile Tikrit region of central Iraq. "There has been sporadic house-to-house fighting during our door-to-door caroling, but that's to be expected in a Christmas season of this magnitude."

Christmas Brought to Iraq by Force
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 08:02 pm
c.i., good one. Laughing Laughing
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Dec, 2003 10:34 pm
Approaching desperation .....

Quote:
Monday, December 22, 2003

Questions and Fears...
Baghdad has been a very tense place these last few days. Yesterday alone we heard around 8 explosions though none of the news channels seem to be covering them. There have also been several demonstrations- some anti-Saddam and some pro-Saddam and several anti-America. The most prominent anti-America demonstrations took place in A'adhamiya and Amiriya, two residential areas in Baghdad.

One demonstration in A'adhamiya included people from all over the city. The demonstrators were demanding the release of hundreds of people who have been detained over the last few weeks (there are thousands of detained Iraqis, overall). Most people imagine detained Iraqis as being bearded, angry men in their 30s or 40s shouting anti-imperialist slogans and whipping their heads about in a livid frenzy. They do not see the women- school teachers, professors and housewives- being herded off to the infamous Abu Ghraib prison. They don't see the kids- some no more than 13 or 14 years old- who are packed away with bags over their heads, hands secured behind their backs. They don't see the anxious mothers and children, weeping with fear and consternation, begging in a language foreign to the soldiers to know where their loved ones are being taken.

The Amiriya demonstrations were pro-Saddam demonstrations led by a boys' high school in the area. Jo Wilding in Baghdad describes the demonstrations in an internet article, and she has another article on some of the detentions:

December 18th- Arresting Children
December 13th- Prisoners

Gasoline is a big problem. A friend of ours quit her job a couple of days ago because her husband can't afford to wait in long lines for 4 or 5 hours to fill up their battered Volvo so that he can drive her across Baghdad every morning to the clinic she works in. Everyone has been buying black-market gasoline of late, but we've been getting leaflets and warnings threatening 7 - 10 years of prison if we buy or sell black-market gasoline. Black-market gas simply means a surly, dirty guy surrounded with yellowish plastic containers selling gas for over 30 times its original price. He, inevitably, has a cigarette dangling out of the side of his mouth and a furtive, hurried look about him.

We've been using candles most of the time instead of kerosene lamps because the kerosene man hasn't been coming around these last few days and we need the kerosene for the heaters. The kids really hate the candles. The other day, the electricity suddenly flashed on at 8 pm after a 6-hour blackout. We were exalted. Everyone jumped for the television at once and a chorus of voices called out, "News! The movie! A song! Cartoons!" After flipping the channels, we settled for a movie.

We sat watching until one of the scenes faded into a darkened room. The camera focused on the couple sitting at a round table, gazing into each others eyes and smiling fondly across two elegant candles. It was a cozy, romantic candle-light dinner. I think the whole family was lost in the scene when suddenly, my cousin's youngest daughter spoke up, impatiently, "They have no electricity! They're using the candles…"

It took me about 15 minutes to try to explain to her that they had electricity but actually *chose* to sit in the dark because it was more 'romantic'. The difficulty of explaining romance to a 7-year-old is nothing compared to the difficulty of explaining the 'romance' of a darkened room and candles- especially if the 7-year-old has associated candles to explosions and blackouts her whole life.

These last few days have been truly frightening. The air in Baghdad feels charged in a way that scares me. Everyone can feel the tension and it has been a strain on the nerves. It's not so much what's been going on in the streets- riots, shootings, bombings and raids- but it's the possibility of what may lie ahead. We've been keeping the kids home from school, and my cousin's wife learned that many parents were doing the same- especially the parents who need to drive their kids to school.

We've been avoiding discussing the possibilities of this last week's developments… the rioting and violence. We don't often talk about the possibility of civil war because conferring about it somehow makes it more of a reality. When we do talk about it, it's usually done in hushed tones with an overhanging air of consternation. Is it possible? Will it happen?

Sunnis and Shi'a have always lived in harmony in Iraq and we still do, so far. I'm from a family that is about half Shi'a and half Sunni. We have never had problems as the majority of civilized people don't discriminate between the two. The thing that seems to be triggering a lot of antagonism on all sides is the counterinsurgency militia being cultivated by the CPA and GC which will include Chalabi's thugs, SCIRI extremists and some Kurdish Bayshmarga.

The popular and incorrect belief seems to be that if you are a Kurd or Shi'a, this step is a positive one. Actually, the majority of moderate Kurds and Shi'a are just as exasperated as Sunnis about this new group of soldiers/spies that is going to be let loose on the population. It's just going to mean more hostility and suspicion in all directions, and if the new Iraqi force intends to be as indiscriminate with the detentions and raids as the troops, there's going to be a lot of bloodshed too.

I once said that I hoped, and believed, Iraqis were above the horrors of civil war and the slaughter of innocents, and I'm clinging to that belief with the sheer strength of desperation these days. I remember hearing the stories about Lebanon from people who were actually living there during the fighting and a constant question arose when they talked about the grief and horrors- what led up to it? What were the signs? How did it happen? And most importantly… did anyone see it coming?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2003 03:11 pm
Another Krugman article.
******


A Deliberate Debacle
December 12, 2003
By PAUL KRUGMAN

James Baker sets off to negotiate Iraqi debt forgiveness
with our estranged allies. And at that very moment the
deputy secretary of defense releases a "Determination and
Findings" on reconstruction contracts that not only
excludes those allies from bidding, but does so with highly
offensive language. What's going on?

Maybe I'm giving Paul Wolfowitz too much credit, but I
don't think this was mere incompetence. I think the
administration's hard-liners are deliberately sabotaging
reconciliation.

Surely this wasn't just about reserving contracts for
administration cronies. Yes, Halliburton is profiteering in
Iraq - will apologists finally concede the point, now that
a Pentagon audit finds overcharging? And reports suggest a
scandal in Bechtel's vaunted school-repair program.

But I've always found claims that profiteering was the
motive for the Iraq war - as opposed to a fringe benefit -
as implausible as claims that the war was about fighting
terrorism. There are deeper motives here.

Mr. Wolfowitz's official rationale for the contract policy
is astonishingly cynical: "Limiting competition for prime
contracts will encourage the expansion of international
cooperation in Iraq and in future efforts" - future
efforts? - and "should encourage the continued cooperation
of coalition members." Translation: we can bribe other
nations to send troops.

But I doubt whether even Mr. Wolfowitz believes that. The
last year, from the failure to get U.N. approval for the
war to the retreat over the steel tariff, has been one long
lesson in the limits of U.S. economic leverage. Mr.
Wolfowitz knows as well as the rest of us that allies who
could really provide useful help won't be swayed by a few
lucrative contracts.

If the contracts don't provide useful leverage, however,
why torpedo a potential reconciliation between America and
its allies? Perhaps because Mr. Wolfowitz's faction doesn't
want such a reconciliation.

These are tough times for the architects of the "Bush
doctrine" of unilateralism and preventive war. Dick Cheney,
Donald Rumsfeld and their fellow Project for a New American
Century alumni viewed Iraq as a pilot project, one that
would validate their views and clear the way for further
regime changes. (Hence Mr. Wolfowitz's line about "future
efforts.")

Instead, the venture has turned sour - and many insiders
see Mr. Baker's mission as part of an effort by veterans of
the first Bush administration to extricate George W. Bush
from the hard-liners' clutches. If the mission collapses
amid acrimony over contracts, that's a good thing from the
hard-liners' point of view.

Bear in mind that there is plenty of evidence of policy
freebooting by administration hawks, such as the
clandestine meetings last summer between Pentagon officials
working for Douglas Feith, under secretary of defense for
policy and planning - and a key player in the
misrepresentation of the Iraqi threat - and Iranians of
dubious repute. Remember also that blowups by the
hard-liners, just when the conciliators seem to be getting
somewhere, have been a pattern.

There was a striking example in August. It seemed that
Colin Powell had finally convinced President Bush that if
we aren't planning a war with North Korea, it makes sense
to negotiate. But then John Bolton, the under secretary of
state for arms control, whose role is more accurately
described as "the neocons' man at State," gave a speech
about Kim Jong Il, declaring: "To give in to his
extortionist demands would only encourage him and, perhaps
more ominously, other would-be tyrants."

In short, this week's diplomatic debacle probably reflects
an internal power struggle, with hawks using the contracts
issue as a way to prevent Republican grown-ups from
regaining control of U.S. foreign policy. And initial
indications are that the ploy is working - that the hawks
have, once again, managed to tap into Mr. Bush's fondness
for moralistic, good-versus-evil formulations. "It's very
simple," Mr. Bush said yesterday. "Our people risk their
lives. . . . Friendly coalition folks risk their lives. . .
. The contracting is going to reflect that."

In the end the Bush doctrine - based on delusions of
grandeur about America's ability to dominate the world
through force - will collapse. What we've just learned is
how hard and dirty the doctrine's proponents will fight
against the inevitable.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/12/opinion/12KRUG.html?ex=1072238422&ei=1&en=aab3b4c8400520c6
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Dec, 2003 10:51 pm
This thread is becoming a long load. How about Iraq VI?
0 Replies
 
 

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