0
   

THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 04:57 pm
Convoluted.
Quote:
If you didn't want the US to take military action against Saddam Hussein, then you didn't want him deposed. You wanted him to remain in power.


This is why I don't debate with Right Wing Zealots.

Yesterday on TV I heard one of these pundits from a "think" tank say that the Medicare Bill took that issue off the table as a Democrat one and scored a vctory for the Dubya gang. This type of logic is why it is pointless to counter anything Right Wing Zealots spout. They also engage in outright lies.

It is much better not to counter the nonesense and instead offer up solutions and one's own programms than to engage in useless back and forth. One will never gain anything by the tit or tat minutia. It's a wak trap.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 05:27 pm
This joke fits very nicely in this forum.
*******************************
Subject: Politics

A little boy goes to his dad and asks, "What is Politics?"

Dad says, "Well son, let me try to explain it this way:


I'm the head of the family, so call me The President.

Your mother is the administrator of the money, so we call her the Government.

We're here to take care of your needs, so we'll call you the People.

The nanny, we'll consider her the Working Class.

And your baby brother, we'll call him the Future.



Now think about that and see if it makes sense."

So the little boy goes off to bed thinking about what Dad has said.

Later that night, he hears his baby brother crying, so he gets up to check on him. He finds that the baby has severely soiled his diaper.

So the little boy goes to his parent's room and finds his mother sound asleep.

Not wanting to wake her, he goes to the nanny's room and finds his Daddy in bed with the nanny.

He gives up and goes back to bed.

The next morning, with everyone at the breakfast table, the little boy says to his father, "Dad, I think I understand the concept of politics now."

The father says, "Good, son, tell me in your own words what you think politics is all about."



The little boy replies, "The President is screwing the Working Class while the Government is sound asleep. The People are being ignored and the Future is in deep ****."
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 05:49 pm
Quote:
Who here has hoped for:
a) US failure in Iraq?
b) Hope that the Economy would collapse?
c) Hope that the rest of the world would avoid attempting reconstruction in Iraq (despite US hindrance)?
d) any of the other stupid things those of you who call yourselves conservatives accuse the "liberals" of?


Hobitbob, you make an excellent point here. None of us "liberals" or "independents," (I guess I would style myself the latter, for lack of a better label) wish and hope for bad things to happen just to prove a point we might have made a year ago. I see it over and over again here. Someone will say Well, I hope all of you liberals are happy! How could anyone say that and think that there are thoughtful and concerned and engaged posters on this thread?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 06:22 pm
Quote:
If you didn't want the US to take military action against Saddam Hussein, then you didn't want him deposed. You wanted him to remain in power.

Hobitbob wrote:

Quote:
This is why I don't debate with Right Wing Zealots.


This is a frustration for me, as well. I was amazed at the foolish comments made about Dr. Dean yesterday. One was that "If he had been president, Saddam Hussein would still be in power." Not only does that statement defy one of the rules of rhetorical logic, but it is so blatantly a misstatement that I was mind-boggled.

Surely there was no one who didn't want Saddam Hussein out of power, but there were other ways to accomplish that than by taking out an entire country. We could have taken out Saddam Hussein without going to war. (Well, we might have had to hire a few Arabists to help us, right? It helps to speak the language...) But we did not do that. We struck Iraq and finally got Saddam Hussein. And our triumph is mightily displayed. I continue to believe that we could have done the same thing without going to war pre-emptively and cutting ourselves off from the rest-of-the-world's concern and hesitation about that act.

If we had concentrated our intelligence and fire-power on Osama bin Laden, we would have struck at our purported object (terrorists) rather than our pretended one.

If any presidential candidate might have hesitated to start such a war, expecially if its supporting premises were as dodgy as they have proved to be, I would listen to everything else he or she has to say. There were many people on the peace march carrying signs Down with Saddam Hussein, but not this way.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 06:31 pm
Hobbitbob didn't say that. He may have thought it, but he didn't say that. Very Happy Please don't attribute things to me I didn't say.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 06:50 pm
"That" quote is attributed to pistoff. However, when the right-wing zealots do make such statements about "we wanted Saddam to stay in power," it shows how illogical and assinine their position remains. The US used preemptive force that killed over 15,000 people in Iraq for the purpose of eliminating WMDs that do not exist, while the US have lost over 500 to "eliminate" Saddam. I think the numbers are somewhat of an overkill to get rid of one tyrant, but the right-wingers can only see what they wish to see. No matter that the majority of those killed are innocent men, women, and children. I doubt they'll ever "see it."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 06:53 pm
Quite awhile ago, BLatham started a thread in which he contended that there was a rising trend of "unAmericanism" in the U.S.--that is to say, that accusations of that kind were leveled against Americans opposed to the Shrubs antics by those who support him. I poo-pooed the idea. Not because it doesn't happen, but because it has always happened, and it has never mattered. All of us disloyal, dirty commie, left-wing pinko fags are still here, and no one materially interfers with our lives. What i'd say we have here today and tonight is an example of why Mr. Latham could reasonably come to that conclusion. Many on the right would like to be able to tar liberal critics with the unAmerican brush. It doesn't fly here, so, instead, those who support the Prez and the slaughter in Iraq attribute all sorts of unpleasant or undesireable traits to their opponents.

YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaawn . . .

Think i'll go read a good book . . .
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:14 pm
set

You're cute in that hat.

I won't restate the notion you allude to, but I suppose I feel it is one of those things we ought to be alert to and speak out against when we sees it.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:23 pm
c.i., that was funny!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:29 pm
timberlandko wrote:


I suspect strongly that this is not unrelated to developments in Iraq.


I suspect strongly it is not, or only to a negligeable degree.

In fact, I think the article you quoted itself was more on-target, when observing:

"But recent polls have detected waning support for violence that has brought little but Israeli military crackdowns imposing hardship on the population at large ..."

However - I do thank you for bringing that news report here! It gives one hope!
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:32 pm
It's curious, because Sharon right now is acting in ways we haven't seen from him before too.

Is it possible that the extra-governmental peace accord is a significant factor?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:38 pm
Sometimes it seems international politics is like a bad movie ... in the category, "Damn, did they really say that?':

Quote:
American soldiers who had been involved in the arrest of Saddam yesterday extensively reported on the operation. "I am Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq and I want to negotiate", said the Iraqi ex-leader when he was found in his underground hole.

(the sad bugger)

Quote:
'Good riddance,' Bush replied when asked what message he would send the famous prisoner. 'The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein. I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole and you crawled in it.'

(0-1 for Bush - in this kinda cowboy showdown way)

(i dont have a TV - thats why i'm only getting these quotes now)

Meanwhile - <grins>:

Quote:
How differently did Saddams sons Udai and Kusai react, who literally fought to death after they were discovered by the Americans in July. Many are proud of these martyrs [..] Kusai had more principles than his father, is what they say there now. As for Udai, he was just crazy, says [expert] Kets de Vries.

(imagine we didnt have experts to explain stuff Wink
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:40 pm
nimh, "Kusai" in Japanese means stink. Wink
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:55 pm
Simple
Simple concepts for simple minds. Saddam has been captured. America is a safer place thanks to our great leader. People are craving good news. This gives them what they crave.

Here's a little thing that pissed me off. When asked about the Death Penality for Saddam, Dubya shrugged and said that it is not his decison but his body language purposefully said, Execute. I just can't help it. I cringe whenever I see that cretin on tv. If that sad excuse for a President gets re-elected I guess I will curtail watching any news on tv and stick to the Net for news.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:58 pm
Right-wingers don't need to bother reading this.
*****************
Patriots and Profits
December 16, 2003
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Last week there were major news stories about possible profiteering by Halliburton and other American contractors in Iraq. These stories have, inevitably and appropriately, been pushed temporarily into the background by the news of
Saddam's capture. But the questions remain. In fact, the more you look into this issue, the more you worry that we have entered a new era of excess for the military-industrial complex.

The story about Halliburton's strangely expensive gasoline imports into Iraq gets curiouser and curiouser. High-priced gasoline was purchased from a supplier whose name is unfamiliar to industry experts, but that appears to be run
by a prominent Kuwaiti family (no doubt still grateful for the 1991 liberation). U.S. Army Corps of Engineers documents seen by The Wall Street Journal refer to "political pressures" from Kuwait's government and the U.S. embassy in Kuwait to deal only with that firm. I wonder where that trail leads.

Meanwhile, NBC News has obtained Pentagon inspection reports of unsanitary conditions at mess halls run by Halliburton in Iraq: "Blood all over the floors of refrigerators, dirty pans, dirty grills, dirty salad bars, rotting meat and vegetables." An October report complains that Halliburton had promised to fix the problem but didn't.

And more detail has been emerging about Bechtel's much-touted school repairs. Again, a Pentagon report found "horrible" work: dangerous debris left in playground areas, sloppy paint jobs and broken toilets.

Are these isolated bad examples, or part of a pattern? It's impossible to be sure without a broad, scrupulously independent investigation. Yet such an inquiry is hard to imagine in the current political environment - which is precisely why one can't help suspecting the worst.

Let's be clear: worries about profiteering aren't a
left-right issue. Conservatives have long warned that regulatory agencies tend to be "captured" by the industries they regulate; the same must be true of agencies that hand out contracts. Halliburton, Bechtel and other major contractors in Iraq have invested heavily in political influence, not just through campaign contributions, but by
enriching people they believe might be helpful. Dick Cheney is part of a long if not exactly proud tradition: Brown & Root, which later became the Halliburton subsidiary doing those dubious deals in Iraq, profited handsomely from its early support of a young politician named Lyndon Johnson.

So is there any reason to think that things are worse now? Yes.

The biggest curb on profiteering in government contracts is the threat of exposure: sunshine is the best disinfectant. Yet it's hard to think of a time when U.S. government dealings have been less subject to scrutiny.

First of all, we have one-party rule - and it's a highly disciplined, follow-your-orders party. There are members of Congress eager and willing to take on the profiteers, but they don't have the power to issue subpoenas.

And getting information without subpoena power has become much harder because, as a new report in U.S. News & World Report puts it, the Bush administration has "dropped a shroud of secrecy across many critical operations of the
federal government." Since 9/11, the administration has invoked national security to justify this secrecy, but it
actually began the day President Bush took office.

To top it all off, after 9/11 the U.S. media - which
eagerly played up the merest hint of scandal during the Clinton years - became highly protective of the majesty of the office. As the stories I've cited indicate, they have become more searching lately. But even now, compare British and U.S. coverage of the Neil Bush saga.

The point is that we've had an environment in which officials inclined to do favors for their business friends, and contractors inclined to pad their bills or do shoddy work, didn't have to worry much about being exposed. Human nature being what it is, then, the odds are that the troubling stories that have come to light aren't isolated
examples.

Some Americans still seem to feel that even suggesting the possibility of profiteering is somehow unpatriotic. They should learn the story of Harry Truman, a congressman who
rose to prominence during World War II by leading a campaign against profiteering. Truman believed, correctly, that he was serving his country.

On the strength of that record, Franklin Roosevelt chose Truman as his vice president. George Bush, of course, chose Dick Cheney.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/16/opinion/16KRUG.html?ex=1072581280&ei=1&en=0f00988f0b96b2fa
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 07:58 pm
Quote:
I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole and you crawled in it.'
Does anyone else find this remark as childish as I do?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 08:03 pm
perception wrote:
Quote:
Just before the war, Jose Ramos-Horta, one of the leaders of the struggle for independence of East Timor, looked on the anti-war protesters and asked: 'Why did I not see one single banner or hear one speech calling for the end of human rights abuses in Iraq, the removal of the dictator and freedom for the Iraqis and the Kurdish people?'


Odd, that. I was in one of those demos and I saw lots of placards etc that were against Bush AND Saddam.

Even saw some placards carried by exile Iraqis, against Saddam but also against war.

Who knows, they might have changed their mind now. But they were there.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 08:09 pm
blatham wrote:
Does anyone else find this remark as childish as I do?

When I see quotes of American politicians like that (mind you, it couldve been Thatcher too), they do always make me go, "he really SAID that?!".

BUT - gung-ho to the point of silly it may sound to us - he's pretty much right, though. I mean, yeh - the sad, pathetic bugger!
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 08:26 pm
blatham wrote:
Quote:
I find it very interesting that when the heat got on, you dug yourself a hole and you crawled in it.'
Does anyone else find this remark as childish as I do?


Well, let's just say he lacked the stoic virtues of Brutus and Marc Antony
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Dec, 2003 08:31 pm
Quote:
I poo-pooed the idea. Not because it doesn't happen, but because it has always happened, and it has never mattered. All of us disloyal, dirty commie, left-wing pinko fags are still here, and no one materially interfers with our lives. What i'd say we have here today and tonight is an example of why Mr. Latham could reasonably come to that conclusion. Many on the right would like to be able to tar liberal critics with the unAmerican brush. It doesn't fly here, so, instead, those who support the Prez and the slaughter in Iraq attribute all sorts of unpleasant or undesireable traits to their opponents.


Setanta, Cool

Hobitbob, sorry about the wrong attrib. Embarrassed Hadda glassa wine and well, ya know....
0 Replies
 
 

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