0
   

THE US, UN AND IRAQ V

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 07:08 am
Fedral wrote
Quote:
Unless of course you think we should tell Sadam that we're sorry and give him his country back?


You should have said sorry a while back. Its too late now. His Excellency President Saddam Hussein is in no mood to accept such an apology, no matter how contrite.

Of course if the American military had done its job properly...or rather if Bush and Rumsfeld had given them the resources to do the job properly... then we wouldn't be in this mess, because there would be no Saddam Hussein to apologise to.

Wasn't removing Saddam from power what this war was all about? You haven't done it. You've just shifted his power base and forced him into an alliance with al qaida. And a formidable and dangerous alliance it is too.

What really pisses me off about this war is not that we were lied to over WMD, not that we were expected to believe the pipe dreams of a new democratic Iraq, not even that the real reason for the invasion is the control of that strategic area and in particular its oil, but that through the idiocy and incompetence of American leadership, we're losing it!

"Full spectrum dominance" counts for jack **** against the man with the donkey cart.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 07:39 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

What really pisses me off about this war is not that we were lied to over WMD, not that we were expected to believe the pipe dreams of a new democratic Iraq, not even that the real reason for the invasion is the control of that strategic area and in particular its oil, but that through the idiocy and incompetence of American leadership, we're losing it!


I don't believe you mean that, Steve.

What disturbs me about it is that it was illegal, immoral, very stupid, and justified by lies.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 07:48 am
Just thought you guys might be interested in this report of the demonstration last week, written by my friend who was on it:

Quote:
A quarter of a million people came on to the streets of London on Thursday 20th November 2003 to tell George Bush and his hosts that he was not welcome in our country, and had no support here for his policies. In what surely must be one of the largest weekday marches in London's history was a crowd as diverse and determined as any seen. The route finished crossing the Westminster Bridge, pass the Houses of Parliament and up Whitehall to Trafalgar Square. A crescendo of noise was saved for when marches passed Downing Street - the closest the protestors could get to Mr Bush and his supporters. The start of the march reached the Square before the end of the march had left the setting off point! The high point at the end of the rally was the pulling down of a effigy statue of Mr Bush, symbolic of the staged pulling down of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad during the Iraq War. A coach full of ordinary Harlow people was a part of this event - including many who had got there by public transport. In a democracy, a protest of this size, and also including the two huge protests before the war started, must surely be paid attention by our political leaders. We don't forget as well that by Christmas our own M.P. told us we should have definite proof about the reason for the war - the weapons of mass distraction. We are waiting Mr Rammell.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 08:40 am
McTag wrote
Quote:
I don't believe you mean that, Steve.

What disturbs me about it is that it was illegal, immoral, very stupid, and justified by lies.


On re reading that last sentence wot i rote, I think I have to explain a bit.

I agree it was all of those things, illegal etc etc. But it did happen, and I couldnt stop it. There is a part of me that wants to make the best out of a bad job. And getting rid of Saddam and building a new democratic Iraq is no bad thing in itself. Even the oil issue has some validity...which would you prefer in the near future, American monopoly over the world's oil (as now) or a middle east dictator with his hands on a sizeable proportion of the world's oil and armed with nuclear missiles?

Having failed to stop the war I thought (perhaps naively) that we could at least win the peace. But we're not even doing that.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 10:00 am
Britain and France want to turn the UN inspection force that worked in Iraq before the war into a permanent agency authorised to investigate biological weapons and missile programmes worldwide, The Associated Press has learned.
The US opposes the idea, diplomats and UN officials said, putting Washington at odds with Britain.
For the Bush administration, support for the secret initiative could prove embarrassing after it criticised UN inspectors for failing to find illicit Iraqi weapons.
But a formal rejection could also be awkward since the initiative is based on a recognition that one of Washington's biggest fears - that weapons of mass destruction could get into the wrong hands - is a prime concern for the UN as well.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 10:24 am
Steve -- People do what they mean to do, even when they don't want you to believe that. The outcome is what was desired. America isn't about peace, it's about war. If we'd wanted peace, we'd have planned for it. Did we?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 12:06 pm
Tart I feel doubly cheated. The British government went ahead and supported the Americans in going to war. We could have been leaders in Europe. We chose to be followers of the US. And putting our faith in America, we (or at least I) have been misled.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 01:33 pm
Indeed, Steve. The question is, to what extent was Blair misled and to what extent did he go in with eyes wide open? I think the latter, and I think (as has been stated elsewhere) that he rightly doesn't want to split off the US, isolate us, not in principle. But I believe that may have been a miscalculation and that he should have stepped aside and let us hang ourselves. Which, of course, we wouldn't have done, not quite. Having no coalition might have really changed (embarrassed) the administration here. It's hard to know, but worth surmising -- what do you think? What if Blair had said, No dice?
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 04:18 pm
dyslexia wrote:
Britain and France want to turn the UN inspection force that worked in Iraq before the war into a permanent agency authorised to investigate biological weapons and missile programmes worldwide, The Associated Press has learned.
The US opposes the idea, diplomats and UN officials said, putting Washington at odds with Britain.
For the Bush administration, support for the secret initiative could prove embarrassing after it criticised UN inspectors for failing to find illicit Iraqi weapons.
But a formal rejection could also be awkward since the initiative is based on a recognition that one of Washington's biggest fears - that weapons of mass destruction could get into the wrong hands - is a prime concern for the UN as well.


With only a very limited responsibility given it in Iraq----the UN failed miserably. After one attack they ran home to mamma. Where is the logic that would justify giving the UN any further authority to do anything in Iraq-----we could give them new Range Rovers ,set them up in villas in Switzerland, stock their booze cabinets and tell them to check for WMDs in Geneva----it's nice and safe there.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 04:25 pm
Quote:
With only a very limited responsibility given it in Iraq----the UN failed miserably. After one attack they ran home to mamma.

What attack? Bush "suggested" they leave, or be subject to the attack teh US had planned on Iraq.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 05:19 pm
Quote:
It's hard to know, but worth surmising -- what do you think? What if Blair had said, No dice?


I think Bush would have thought "those no good ungrateful Limeys. We saved their ass in 3 wars an thy no better than the Frogs or the Krauts and the Ruskies"

-we're gonna show what 'merica can do an'way.

In short I don't think it would have stopped American action in Iraq. I have a horrible feeling that Blair will be proved right in the end. If the kids are all playing conkers and the big kid shows up with an uzzi, which is the best plan, tell him to behave, or swear undying friendship?
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 06:20 pm
More Bullshite from the Neo cons.
Quote:
Despite all our tough talk about not trusting politicians, Americans living in a democracy are always forced to some extent to trust our leaders to not exploit our lack of knowledge by lying to us, especially about matters of national security. This is one reason the intelligence agencies have long-established ground rules for how intelligence is vetted and distributed within the government: to make it less open to political manipulation. Raw intelligence, for example, shouldn't be divulged publicly because it is riddled with unverifiable hearsay. But these best practices have been ignored at the Pentagon, where Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has bypassed the department intelligence agency in favor of an ad hoc, Feith-based system where any flotsam that echoes the White House position is deemed solid.


http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1126-10.htm
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 Nov, 2003 08:19 pm
Pretend an undying friendship and get them into restraints as quickly as possible, Steve.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 12:03 am
Good quote, Pisstoff.
I find that credible.

I think any government is bound to select information which suits their case, but they shouldn't make it up nor give undue prominence to unsubstantiated rumour.
CERTAINLY not in matters of national and international importance. And that seems to me to be what is happening now.
Give us back out checks and balances.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 01:10 am
In the months preceding the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. government's intelligence agencies (there was no Central Intelligence in 1941) were able to read Japanese diplomatic messages, having broken both the principle codes, and the encrypting protocols--referring to the process as "magic." Magic intercepts were carefully vetted (the Pearl Harbor conspiracy nuts claim for sinister motives, without substantiation), and summaries were provided, because of the sheer volume of material. This was a case in which the quality of the information was readily quantifiable--extrapolate the degree of difficulty in assessing the value and timing of information in the bulk of intelligence gathering activities in which the quality of information is a guess at best.

The point is that the United States Navy, the United States Army (responsible for defending Hawaii, and therefore the naval base) and the United States Army Air Force (responsible for defending the naval base) all were aware that the Japanese were likely to commence a war without a formal declaration, that Pearl Harbor might be a target--and, crucially, that the six largest Japanese carriers had "gone missing," which is to say they could no longer locate them at all (the U.S. only had six carriers in its entire fleet at this time). But even had U.S. military authorities decided to proceed from an assumption that the Japanese were going to attack Hawaii, their consensus estimate was that the Japanese would attack the naval base--it occurred to no one that the Pacific Fleet would be Yamamoto's target.

Even with a high quality of intelligence gathering, government's and their military advisers can get things very wrong indeed. How much more troubling is it to think that political devotées of "spin" would apply the technique to raw intelligence data of unknown quality and dubious provenance--as though a certain favorable emphasis will produce an international situation in the same way that media presentation can be manipulated in the attempt to sway public opinion. There is much successful politicking in this administration--there is not the least notion of genuine leadership and it's crucial meanings.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 04:10 am
This whole episode just illustrates how right the intelligence services were to slap health warnings all over their product, and how mendacious Blair was to strip away the "checks and balances" as Mc Tag says deliberately allowing the papers to come up with headlines like "45 minutes from doomsday".

The intent was to frighten people and people were genuinely frightened. That was a wicked act in itself.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 05:16 am
Does the fate of peace in Iraq rest in the hands of one man?

Quote:

Quote:
washingtonpost.com > World > Middle East > The Gulf > Iraq
How Cleric Trumped U.S. Plan for Iraq
Ayatollah's Call for Vote Forced Occupation Leader to Rewrite Transition Strategy

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, November 26, 2003; Page A01

BAGHDAD, Nov. 25 -- The unraveling of the Bush administration's script for political transition in Iraq began with a fatwa.


The religious edict, handed down in June by Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, Iraq's most influential Shiite Muslim cleric, called for general elections to select the drafters of a new constitution. He dismissed U.S. plans to appoint the authors as "fundamentally unacceptable."

His pronouncement, underestimated at first by the Bush administration, doomed an elaborate transition plan crafted by U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer that would have kept Iraq under occupation until a constitution was written, according to American and Iraqi officials involved in the process. While Bremer feared that electing a constitutional assembly would take too long and be too disruptive, there was a strong desire on his own handpicked Governing Council to obey Sistani's order.

With no way to get around the fatwa, and with escalating American casualties creating pressure on President Bush for an earlier end to the occupation, Bremer recently dumped his original plan in favor of an arrangement that would bestow sovereignty on a provisional government before a constitution is drafted.

Bremer's unwillingness to heed the fatwa until just a few weeks ago may have delayed the country's political transition and exacerbated popular anger at the occupation, Iraqi political leaders said.

"We waited four months, thanks to Bremer," said one council member, speaking on condition of anonymity. "We could have organized this [transition] by now had we started when Sistani issued his fatwa. But the Americans were in denial."

People familiar with the discussions among U.S. officials about the fatwa said American political officers were too isolated to grasp the power of the edict right away, assuming that secular former exiles backed by the U.S. government would push Bremer's plan. Even when Sistani's clout became clear, they said Bremer remained reluctant to rework his transition plan right away. "He didn't want a Shiite cleric dictating the terms of Iraq's political future," one U.S. official with knowledge of the process said.

U.S. officials said it took months even for Iraqis to grasp the influence of Sistani's fatwa. Bremer's deputies also hoped the edict could be countered by statements from other Shiite clerics supporting approaches other than general elections, but few of those materialized.

"What we thought was necessary was for there to be a broad consultation to find out what the Iraqi public wanted," said one official involved in the political transition. "In hindsight," another official added, "we should have done it differently."

Who Would Draft Constitution?

Sistani is a frail man with a black turban, a snowy beard and unquestioned clout among Iraq's Shiite majority. Born in Iran but schooled in Iraq, he lives in the holy city of Najaf, about 90 miles south of Baghdad. Although he works out of a modest office on a decrepit alley, he has enormous authority to interpret Islamic law in everyday life.

During the years former president Saddam Hussein was in power -- when the government deemed activist Shiite clerics subversive and ordered many of them killed -- Sistani remained largely secluded from politics. Even after Hussein's government was toppled in April, Sistani shied away from political pronouncements and public appearances.

At the end of June, when Arab satellite television networks erroneously reported that Iraq's constitution would be written by American and British experts, Sistani broke his silence. In a two-page fatwa issued on June 28, he declared that he would only support a constitution written by Iraqis chosen through a general election, not by a council selected by the Americans.

The fatwa declared: "There is no guarantee that the council would create a constitution conforming with the greater interests of the Iraqi people and expressing the national identity, whose basis is Islam, and its noble social values."

In Baghdad, Sistani's pronouncement did not raise immediate alarm among U.S. officials. Bremer's aides assumed the fatwa would be revised or rescinded once they told Sistani how difficult it would be to hold elections right away. There were no voter rolls, constituent boundaries or electoral laws. "There is simply no way to conduct national elections today," Bremer said at the time.



SOURCE AND NEXT FOUR PAGES
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 05:55 am
Imperialistic chess?

Quote:


The Boston Globe November 26, 2003
Shift Begins For Military Overseas Large-Scale Redeployment Around World

In-Depth Coverage

By Bryan Bender, Globe Correspondent

WASHINGTON - The Bush administration yesterday signaled the official start to the most sweeping shift in the American military presence abroad since World War II, telling allies that it would immediately seek to redeploy troops, ships, and aircraft stationed around the world.

The administration indicated that nations such as Germany, Japan, and South Korea, which for decades have hosted hundreds of thousands of US troops, could see a significant decrease in American military presence as the Pentagon focuses on prosecuting the war on terror and meeting other emerging national security challenges.

"Beginning today, the United States will intensify our consultations with the Congress and our friends, allies, and partners overseas on our ongoing review of our overseas force posture," President Bush said in a statement from Crawford, Texas. "We will ensure that we place the right capabilities in the most appropriate locations to best address the new security environment. High-level US teams will begin consultations in foreign capitals in Europe, Asia, and elsewhere."

State and Defense Department negotiators acknowledged that some of the discussions with long-time allies who have hosted US forces for decades will be painful, while gaining new basing rights will be difficult. They pledged that the consultative process will be a two-way street, where old and new allies alike will have significant input into what the US ultimately decides and the locations American forces eventually call their new home.

They added that the consultations have only just begun and that no specific decisions have been made about how many troops will be moved, where they will come from, or where they will end up.

But the broad outlines of the new approach call for the United States to move away from the large, fixed facilities in western Europe designed to guard against a threat - namely that of the Soviet Union - that disappeared nearly 15 years ago. The United States still has 68,000 troops in Germany, for example. It also has 100,000 in the western Pacific, including 37,000 in South Korea alone.

General James L. Jones, head of US European Command, has said that 20 percent of the 499 US installations in his area of responsibility - everything from tiny outposts to full-blown bases - should be shut down.

The military's new emphasis is likely to be on geographic areas where US forces have increasingly found themselves fighting the global war on terrorism - particularly in the Middle East and Central Asia.

The United States has started expanding its network of small, sparsely populated facilities in Africa, Central and Southeast Asia, and the Middle East. In the last couple of years, US facilities have been established in the Horn of Africa (Djibouti), in former Soviet republics (Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan), and in former Eastern Bloc states (Bulgaria, Romania).

"Since the end of the Cold War, the once familiar threats facing our nation, our friends, and our allies have given way to the less predictable dangers associated with rogue nations, global terrorism, and weapons of mass destruction," Bush said.

Defense Department officials said that the reordering of US forces, expected to take five or six years, is meant to move the military out of its lingering and outdated Cold War system of basing and deployment towards a model better suited for dealing with terrorism and the main threats of the 21st century. That model would be quicker, leaner, more agile, and, most importantly, better suited to respond to global unpredictability.

"The tasks that the United States found itself in in recent years took us in different directions geographically," a senior State Department official told reporters on the condition he not be named.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, speaking to reporters at the Pentagon, said recent changes in American military technology have made it possible to reduce the size, if not the number, of overseas bases because the US ability to project military power is not necessarily directly tied to the number of ships, planes, or tanks, but their ability to work together.

"The goal is to end up with capabilities that are as good or better, and addressed not to 20th-century threats but to 21st-century capabilities and threats," Rumsfeld told reporters at the Pentagon.

Others said the changes are a direct result of recent US military conflicts that have taken place outside the traditional spheres of American influence.

"A lot of those forces that were deployed from Germany down to Iraq are just going to stay in Iraq, and a lot of American bases in Germany are going to get closed" said John Pike, director of the GlobalSecurity.org think tank. "Basically what they are trying to do is come up with some conceptual construct that accounts for the persistent American presence in Iraq and in [Central Asia]."

Robert Schlesinger of the Globe staff contributed to this report.

© Copyright 2003, Globe Newspaper Company
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 10:16 am
set

Excellent post above.

The following is a very good and relevant article...

Quote:
The Vanishing Case for War
By Thomas Powers

The invasion and conquest of Iraq by the United States last spring was the result of what is probably the least ambiguous case of the misreading of secret intelligence information in American history. Whether it is even possible that a misreading so profound could yet be in some sense "a mistake" is a question to which I shall return. Going to war was not something we were forced to do and it certainly was not something we were asked to do. It was something we elected to do for reasons that have still not been fully explained...

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16813
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Nov, 2003 10:45 am
From your article:

www.nybooks.com wrote:


To return to the Pearl Harbor analogy: There were two reports on the possible consequences of a Japanese air attack prepared in 1941. Early in the year came the Martin-Bellinger report, named for the two air operations officers, one serving Lt. Gen. Short, the other serving Adm. Kimmel; later there was the Farthing report, named for the then commander of the Hawaiian Air Force. Both reports assumed that the target of such an attack would be the naval base, and not the Pacific Fleet. My point is that the best intelligence analysis in the world, supported by a realistic assessment of one's opponents and their motives can come to erroneous conclusions. From an American point of view, for however much no one wanted to lose the Pacific Fleet, the naval base was far more valuable. The fleet could be replaced, and naval expansion was already proceeding apace. New naval interceptors, bombers and torpedo attack planes were in development--the Wildcat was already replacing the Buffalo as the fleet fighter. Ships and aircraft can deliver themselves to the forward base. But to rebuild the crucial habor facilities, drydocks, machine shops, fuel stations would require a massive effort involving a disasterous disruption of mercantile shipping. The "tank farms" filled with precious bunker oil for the Pacific Fleet were a concern uppermost in the minds of the responsible officers. For these very good and sufficient reasons, American military men were concerned with the preservation of the naval base, and assumed that it would be the primary Japanese target.

Yamamoto, however, knew the United States well enough to know what sort of disaster loomed for Japan is the Pacific Fleet moved out to challenge their advance agains the Netherlands East Indies, and the rich resources available there. Yamamoto wanted to neutralize the Pacific Fleet for six months--and he acheived his goal. He was intent on removing the threat to the flank of the main Japanese effort known as the southern operation, and he succeeded beyond his best expectation. If the Pacific Fleet hadn't been at Pearl Harbor, Nagumo's fleet would have tried to hunt it down. The Japanese would have, in fact, preferred to have found Kimmel's fleet elsewhere, because ships sunk in deep, blue water cannot be raised and repaired or used for scrap. (Which is, by the way, one of the principle refutations of conspiracy theories about Pearl Harbor.)

In that case, military planners attempted to take the most realistic possible account of Japanese intentions, but were deluded by their own emminently reasonable estimates of what constituted the most crucial target in Hawaii. In our current situation, the government seems to have arrived at a decision, and then used very questionable intelligence to justify the plan of action after it had been adopted. Not only were considerations of the possible effect on middle eastern public opinion discounted, it seems that no account was taken of what world opinion would be. It appears that assessments of the likely degree of difficulty of invasion and prolonged occupation were based, not upon military and political realities, but upon the eager assertions of Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress--the complete opposite of a reliably disinterested source for such an assessment. Middle eastern reaction has proven crucial as militants appear to flow into Iraq via Syria and Iran, and possibly Jordan. World public opinion is crucial, in that we haven't a shred of worthwhile UN support, and are basically footing the bill alone, while Americans and British are killed. When the Poles and Italians attempt to join our occupation, for reasons which one may characterize as self-interestedly venal (major pot-calling-the-kettle-black there), but which are at least superficially laudable as being done for the benefit of the Iraqi people--those nations' troops become targets.

I used the Pearl Harbor example, because, despite silly conspiracy theories which sprouted almost immediately, and continue to this day--the evidence, much from Kimmel, Short, Stark, Hull, Knox, Marshall and other Americans in testimony at the Army and Navy boards, and much else from Genda, Nagumo, Fuchida and many other Japanese in correspondence and interviews--that evidence is that the United States was working from the best intelligence then available to arrive at the best defense possible based upon reasonable estimates of the Japanese intentions, which did not at all coincide with actual Japanese intentions. How much the worse when intelligence is simply seen as a tool to be used after the fact to justify policy arrived at based upon partisan theory, and not upon any reasonable assessment of realpolitik? As the paragraph above from your article points out, chillingly, what does this bode for the possible actions of this administration in the event Bush is re-elected?
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 1.33 seconds on 12/22/2024 at 06:23:28