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Words and Deeds

 
 
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:26 pm
Republican Tom Tancredo said that if the United States was attacked, that he would bomb Mecca and Medina, Islams holiest cities. The U.S. State Dept. was quick to condemn the Senator's statement.

It shall be the policy of this nation to regard any nuclear missile launched from Cuba against any nation in the Western Hemisphere as an attack by the Soviet Union on the United States, requiring a full retaliatory response upon the Soviet Union. ~ Jack Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis

Imagine if you can, 19 murderous Christian fundamentalists (U.S. citizens) hijacked four airplanes over Saudi Arabia and, in the name of God, crashed them into the holy cities of Mecca and Medina, destroying the holy Kaaba and killing thousands of innocent Muslims. Could anyone doubt that the entire Christian world - clergy, political leaders and common folk would rise as one to denounce the act? Here at home Madison Square Garden and all the stadiums across this great country could'nt hold the trainloads and buses of priests and preachers, reverends and rectors that would descend upon a mass service of atonement and shame. The pope himself would attend and speak at this blasphemous betrayal of Christ.

And yet after Sept. 11, where were the Muslim clergy, the imams and mullahs, rising around the world to declare that Sept. 11 was a crime against Islam? Where were the fatwas against Osama bin Laden? Nowhere that's were! All I see coming out of the Middle East on a daily basis is video # 1053
All Clips

So with that said, what should the United States do the next time we are hit? Strike who or what and where, and how? The problem with nation-less nihilist is that they are like brain tumors whose cancer is deeply embedded in the surrounding tissue. Surgery or chemotherapy often kills the host as well as the cancer. The "evil doers" both know and count on just that ambiguity and imprecision!

What to do? First, there should be no moral fuzziness about the Arab world, the Europeans, and the Michael Moore/Cindy Sheehan far left "liberal wacko's" who would hope that we simply take another massive attack on the chin, "learn" from our disaster, and then through our pain and suffering come to "wisdom" about the "futility" of war begetting war.

There should also be no repeat of Afghanistan and Iraq in places like Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia, but rather a General Sherman "collective punishment" adjenda.

IMO We need to be clear about a proper response now and inform the appropriate parties firmly and publicly exactly the real damage that they should expect - their governments, militaries, power plants, communications, and a host of assorted infrastructure. In short, an endless detailed sequence of targets that will be taken out when the culpable and their support networks are identified and confirmed. All sides should anticipate the consequences should another 3,000 Americans be incinerated in the workplace.

If it were to occur again, then we would have to realize that we had no foolproof ability to stop such mass terror. And if we were to accept that death sentence and do nothing, then surely we would be fast-tracking the end of our civilization as we know it. Compared to that scenario, like Tom Tancredo and Jack Kennedy before him, discussing a response right now doesn't seem so stupid, keeping silent about it does. What say you?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 5,777 • Replies: 129
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briansol
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:28 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
The problem is that we made them hate us.

fixing the problem can be done with other means.
0 Replies
 
POLITICAL JEDI
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:30 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
How did we do that?
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:37 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
Actually, there was an outcry from the muslim community, it just got stifled in Americas bloodlust.

Your little theory is great and all, except we aren't fighting a countries war machine like in traditional wars of the past. Aside from encrouchments on Israel there isn't a mass movement of any muslim armies trying to take over the world. The fundimentalist of islame have created that image, and the US government seeing that it has failed to deliver Americans their dreams, instead nowadays offers to keep Americans safe from nightmares real or otherwise, at the cost of just a little bit of freedom and national and financal security.
briansol
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:37 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
i see john is replying.... i'll let him answer this. Smile
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:43 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
POLITICAL JEDI;30901 wrote:
How did we do that?


Ever heard of Mossadeq? The Shah? The Ayattolah? Arming the muhjahdeen against the soviets? We've been playing power games at the expense of the middle east, and have installed puppet dictators, and coups for decades. We have empowered those that want to see us destroyed by sucking of their royal oil tit. You can't run operations that effect so many lives without consequences.
POLITICAL JEDI
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:48 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;30904 wrote:
Actually, there was an outcry from the muslim community, it just got stifled in Americas bloodlust.

The only "outcry" I hear is the one in video #1053. . .So please save your disengenuousness where the Arab World is concerned

Your little theory is great and all, except we aren't fighting a countries war machine like in traditional wars of the past. Aside from encrouchments on Israel there isn't a mass movement of any muslim armies trying to take over the world. The fundimentalist of islame have created that image, and the US government seeing that it has failed to deliver Americans their dreams, instead nowadays offers to keep Americans safe from nightmares real or otherwise, at the cost of just a little bit of freedom and national and financal security.


I understand that there isn't a traditional nation/army that we are at war with! I've already stated that in the OP! The point I make is that the indoctrination still goes on! (As seen in the video) This is what needs dealing with.
0 Replies
 
POLITICAL JEDI
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 12:56 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;30909 wrote:
Ever heard of Mossadeq? The Shah? The Ayattolah? Arming the muhjahdeen against the soviets? We've been playing power games at the expense of the middle east, and have installed puppet dictators, and coups for decades. We have empowered those that want to see us destroyed by sucking of their royal oil tit. You can't run operations that effect so many lives without consequences.


Yea I've heard of them. . .So what? Are you trying to imply that the muhjahadeen would have rather faced an invading Soviet Empire at the height of it's power with rocks and slingshots rather then with U.S. supplied stinger missiles? We helped them as best as we could at the time! Come to think of it. . .The last 7 times our "war machine" came out of it's parking garage we removed an invading Saddam from Quwait, flew over 350,000 sorties to protect the no-fly zones, intervened in Somalia, bombed Bosnia, went to war over Kosovo, overthrew the Taliban in Afghanistan, and finally removed Saddam from power. . . .Who's aid were we coming to in all of these military ventures??? Muslims all!

So again, why should they hate us?
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 01:15 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
POLITICAL JEDI;30915 wrote:
Yea I've heard of them. . .So what? Are you trying to imply that the muhjahadeen would have rather faced an invading Soviet Empire at the height of it's power with rocks and slingshots rather then with U.S. supplied stinger missiles? We helped them as best as we could at the time! Come to think of it. . .The last 7 times our "war machine" came out of it's parking garage we removed an invading Saddam from Quwait, flew over 350,000 sorties to protect the no-fly zones, intervened in Somalia, bombed Bosnia, went to war over Kosovo, overthrew the Taliban in Afghanistan, and finally removed Saddam from power. . . .Who's aid were we coming to in all of these military ventures??? Muslims all!

So again, why should they hate us?


Obviously you don't have the ability to see things from any perspective but your own. Imagine if you will that HUGE oil reserves were found in Montana. Venezeula has an oil company in America drilling for oil, and China comes in and helps over throw our government and installs a comblok friendly communist dictator to control our huge oil reserves and give them to the Venezuelans instead of our plan to profit from them for our nation. Eventually, we find ourselves at war with Canada, they are tryig to take Washington state from us. China provides us arms, and money to fight them off, then as soon as they are defeated, that support dries up, leaving us in a wrecked state, but they are all to happy to install another dictator in Mexico that proceeeds to attack us periodically. Not fun huh? Think we would "owe" something to China?
POLITICAL JEDI
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 01:31 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;30918 wrote:
Obviously you don't have the ability to see things from any perspective but your own. Imagine if you will that HUGE oil reserves were found in Montana. Venezeula has an oil company in America drilling for oil, and China comes in and helps over throw our government and installs a comblok friendly communist dictator to control our huge oil reserves and give them to the Venezuelans instead of our plan to profit from them for our nation. Eventually, we find ourselves at war with Canada, they are tryig to take Washington state from us. China provides us arms, and money to fight them off, then as soon as they are defeated, that support dries up, leaving us in a wrecked state, but they are all to happy to install another dictator in Mexico that proceeeds to attack us periodically. Not fun huh? Think we would "owe" something to China?


Dude I read this mess of a rebuttal 3x and still don't have a clue as to what the hell your trying to say! Just spit it out, but in plain english without a make believe fairytale in which America is stealing :beat: oil. Our involvment in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Balkins has nothing to do with installing dictators, stealing resources, hegemony. . .but rather American values (i.e. freedom, rule of law, government by consent, ect, ect.)

So lets try this again: Since the mid 1980's till now, why should they hate us?
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 01:36 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
POLITICAL JEDI;30921 wrote:
Dude I read this mess of a rebuttal 3x and still don't have a clue as to what the hell your trying to say! Just spit it out, but in plain english without a make believe fairytale in which America is stealing :beat: oil. Our involvment in Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Balkins has nothing to do with installing dictators, stealing resources, hegemony. . .but rather American values (i.e. freedom, rule of law, government by consent, ect, ect.)

So lets try this again: Since the mid 1980's till now, why should they hate us?


American values? Americas polical interest are not always its "values". Read some history, see what we have been doing in the middle east for the last 50+ years.
POLITICAL JEDI
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 02:08 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;30925 wrote:
American values? HAHAHAHA, trying to get a McDonalds on every corner, and convert all those bad men. Read some history, see what we have been doing in the middle east for the last 50+ years.


Instead of looking back a half a century, just look back a quarter century and tell me for the 4th time: Why should they hate us?

You can't can you?

So with that said, the only thing thats so "HAHAHAHA" funny is your inability to answer a simple question whilst being reduced to hypothetical fairytales about stealing oil and installing despots. Embarrassing isn't it?
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 02:14 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
you just have to understand Jedi

while there was no connection between Iraq an Al Qaeda, our bombing of Iraq brought 9/11 upon ourselves. It's our fault and if we just be nice and really submissive they'll leave us alone [/sarcasm]

I dunno about Mecca but I'm all for the "Swordfish Retaliation" because it works

we could have attacked Saudi Arabia after 911 (most of the terrorist were Saudi), but we attacked the Taliban instead. Because that's where they were actually "from"

Some people on here cry rivers that we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, but in reality that makes as much sense as declaring war on Austria because of Hitler...

and a word to those who feel "we made them hate us"

if freedom and free market economies make you hate somebody, it isn't our problem, it's theirs
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 02:29 pm
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;30931 wrote:
you just have to understand Jedi

while there was no connection between Iraq an Al Qaeda, our bombing of Iraq brought 9/11 upon ourselves. It's our fault and if we just be nice and really submissive they'll leave us alone [/sarcasm]

I dunno about Mecca but I'm all for the "Swordfish Retaliation" because it works

we could have attacked Saudi Arabia after 911 (most of the terrorist were Saudi), but we attacked the Taliban instead. Because that's where they were actually "from"

Some people on here cry rivers that we didn't attack Saudi Arabia, but in reality that makes as much sense as declaring war on Austria because of Hitler...

and a word to those who feel "we made them hate us"

if freedom and free market economies make you hate somebody, it isn't our problem, it's theirs



I don't know which is further removed from reality, your condescension about the "bombing of Iraq", or your attempt to compare Hitler and Austria to Saudi and their sponsorship of terror and our willingness to actual do something more than talk **** and attack weak dictators in the name of democracy.
0 Replies
 
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 02:30 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
POLITICAL JEDI;30928 wrote:
Instead of looking back a half a century, just look back a quarter century and tell me for the 4th time: Why should they hate us?

You can't can you?

So with that said, the only thing thats so "HAHAHAHA" funny is your inability to answer a simple question whilst being reduced to hypothetical fairytales about stealing oil and installing despots. Embarrassing isn't it?


You are a fool if you only want to convienently look back only 25 years because that is all that supports your neocon ideology.
POLITICAL JEDI
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:15 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;30935 wrote:
You are a fool if you only want to convienently look back only 25 years because that is all that supports your neocon ideology.


So in other words, lets cruxify George Bush and his neoconservative foreign policy which tried to bring freedom and democracy to 50 million Arabs - lets cruxify him for the misdeeds of former presidents and policy? Is that your logic? Lets give the Arabs a 50 year blank check to do whatever with because we tried to install the Shaw 50 years ago - who would keep the oil pumping whilst keeping out communism. . .Good grief dude!

Finally, In regards to the term neocon. . .what does "neocon" mean, other than "new conservative," or in the realm of todays American foreign policy, offering something a little bit more sincere than playing one thug off another?
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:20 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
Yea, it's all a'ok now because we are only going to worry about what we did in the last couple decades. I seem to remember a phrase, something about not remembering history, and being doomed to repeat it, or something. Nearsighted is an understatement.
Silverchild79
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:45 pm
@92b16vx,
92b16vx;30942 wrote:
Yea, it's all a'ok now because we are only going to worry about what we did in the last couple decades. I seem to remember a phrase, something about not remembering history, and being doomed to repeat it, or something. Nearsighted is an understatement.


it's quite the laugh that you should say that; you claim we should leave Iraq, yet you fail to consider the genocide that followed our departure of Vietnam. More people died after we left then while we were there, and they didn't die for a cause save that of genocidal eradication

but I'm sure that's our fault too... :beat:
westernmom
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:51 pm
@POLITICAL JEDI,
They hate us because that is the only thing they have ever been taught to do. There's no ryhme or reason to it!
92b16vx
 
  1  
Reply Tue 14 Aug, 2007 03:58 pm
@Silverchild79,
Silverchild79;30943 wrote:
it's quite the laugh that you should say that; you claim we should leave Iraq, yet you fail to consider the genocide that followed our departure of Vietnam. More people died after we left then while we were there, and they didn't die for a cause save that of genocidal eradication

but I'm sure that's our fault too... :beat:


Again trying to compare Iraq to Vietnam...sigh.

westernmom wrote:
They hate us because that is the only thing they have ever been taught to do. There's no ryhme or reason to it!


Completely false. Until the 50's we had pretty decent relatios with middle eastern countries, and even until recently it was relatively safe visiting many of them. Our government has shifted in the last few decades to offering protection from created fear instead of the American dream.
 

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