Israel and the middle east.

Dave. Let me start by making clear that everything that I have stated is not something I have made up and is not my own ideology or belief, but it is that of jews. You are arguing on these religious prinsiples with me as if they are my own, it is not my religion.

What do you mean by cleave? do you mean they are split between numerous interpreteations of the Torah? beacause I did not suggest this.

Then again, some say christianity is man made. But it is not up to me to justify people's beliefs.

Why would jews oppress others simply because they choose to follow they're god's command?

However, that jews are pious and sanctimonious, came from you, do NOT put words in my mouth.

If you think religions are social clubs where you can have various degrees of zeal, and change some of the rules as and when it suits you, that is fine, (this is your opinion)

Again I am sorry but this is not own belief, I can see that you seem to think that I am making this up, so please go on google and type in jews against...

But at least you recognise that they were states now.

So why do we see so many orthodox Jews in Israel supporting violence and encouraging the occupation of Jerusalem. Its the orthodox Jews who are in the main occupying these new settlements. Your expressed views of Jews, is a minority opinion.

I do? I don't. They were not states then, they are not now. They were not, and are not, recognized by any official organization as states. A state is not a state because it proclaims itself to be one. And neither The West Bank, nor Gaza, has even done that. If, and when, they are recognized as states by the appropriate international bodies, and there are proper representations sent, they will remain whatever they are. And it looks now as if that period of limbo is indefinite, and will remain indefinite until they pull up their socks (or whatever it is they wear).

---------- Post added 05-22-2010 at 04:15 PM ----------



No one is occupying Jerusalem anymore than anyone is occupying London or Paris.

Well I beg to tell you they are.

Oh, you think they are occupying New York City. What difference does it make what you believe about this matter?

What difference does it make what you believe about this matter



I may be wrong but I see Isreal as having a very sad forecast unless it makes a change.:detective:

How about the Arabs making the change? All they have to do is to stop killing Jews. Is that so hard? (I guess it is, for them).

I do? I don't. They were not states then, they are not now. They were not, and are not, recognized by any official organization as states. A state is not a state because it proclaims itself to be one. And neither The West Bank, nor Gaza, has even done that.

How about the Arabs making the change? All they have to do is to stop killing Jews. Is that so hard? (I guess it is, for them).

So why do we see so many orthodox Jews in Israel supporting violence and encouraging the occupation of Jerusalem. Its the orthodox Jews who are in the main occupying these new settlements. Your expressed views of Jews, is a minority opinion.

Muhammed said never to wear silk and gold, because that way was the way of the fire.
But many muslims wear silk and gold.
Jesus said consider the lily of the field, and that for a rich man to enter heaven was harder than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.
But many christians are rich and few of them bother to think about flowers in any great detail.

You seem to be holding jews to a standard that you don't expect from others.

No, though you are wrong not to suggest it because there are many differing interpretations.

No - but you do seem to see yourself as an arbiter of standards of belief for others. Which you aren't.

jew's faith and the weight by which they obey certain rules or doctrine is between him or her and their god, not you. If their god exists and wants to judge them harshly for returning too soon - that's up to him. Or Him, or HIM, or whatever.

I don't think that's a necessary end - hence why it's fine by me when there's no oppression to criticise. However, there's plenty of oppression to notice and object to regarding the treatment of Palestinians. Theoretically a jew who doesn't wish to see Israel created might commit an act of oppression based on that - I don't know of any examples, but it might happen. So I object to that too if it ever occurs or has occurred.

Effectively you did - you seem to me to hold them - all of them - to a particular and strict reading of their holy books (piety by definition) - rather than to just a general and variable commitment to jewishness in a familial or cultural sense.

No its not a matter of mere opinion, it's a matter of observing 99% of religious people who occasionally break one of the multitude of bewildering and contradictory rules, guidelines, metaphores and advices in their holy books. The only religious people who worry about literally interpreting all of the rules in their holy books all of the time are the most uptight and fundamental of zealots.

Wrong, I would indeed expect I high standard faith from peoples of other religions. But in this case I am defending to an extent the jews because not only is Israel doing something very wrong, but Israel is calling itself a jewish nation, and as I understand from the jews them selves they are mostly against this.

But again if I am wrong on the matter of it being a majority, please feel free to show me so where orthodox jews have said this.

I have been expressing the voice of (from what I have seen) is the majority of orthodox jews so this does not make me as you said an arbiter. But if you stand to say that it is actually a minority and not a majority, feel free to show me so where the jews have said this.

, so now dave since you have already accused me of this PLEASE point to where (I) have said this to be up to me, can you do that?

According to what theory exactly is this dave?

This is like me saying that theoretically an american who does wish to see a black president might commit an act of oppression based on that.

It might indeed happen but this might also happen with any person of religion, plus such a small percentage of the whole who decides to result to such extreme measures does not at all account for or represent the majority would you not agree?

So again, please point to me where I have referred to (as what I believe is the majority) of jews being pious and sanctimonious, are you sure you know what those words mean?

Indeed people of all religions might occasionally break one of the multitude of bewildering and contradictory rules, guidelines, metaphores and advices in their holy books, but where from did you obtain the fact that this number is 99% ?

Oh, you think they are occupying New York City. What difference does it make what you believe about this matter?

I just looked this up. 76.4% of the people of Isreal are Jewish in religion, (if thats not a majority of a population, then I have been learning math wrong this whole time), the official language is Hebrew, (once again, I may have learned this wrong, but isn't Hebrew the Jewish language?), and this last one may be irrelevant, but doesn't their flag have a big Star of David on it?

If Isreal isn't a Jewish country then what would you call it?

And this is a not smart ass question, can zionism vs. Judaism be similar to Protestant vs. Catholicism? Just at difference in interperatation of the Holy Books?

But the world doesn't think that. Jerusalem is shared between Israel and the West Bank, it isn't under Israeli occupation as a gestalt. At certain times parts of it, such as Al Quds, have been, but Jerusalem as commonly understood is within the borders recognised by the international community since the 1940s.

The wider area still known as Jerusalem is being taken forcible from the Arabs. Arabs who have lived there for years are being evicted and immigrant Jews are occupying their houses.BBC NEWS | Middle East | Palestinians evicted in Jerusalem

The wider area still known as Jerusalem is being taken forcible from the Arabs. Arabs who have lived there for years are being evicted and immigrant Jews are occupying their houses.BBC NEWS | Middle East | Palestinians evicted in Jerusalem

That's an issue I strongly object to and believe is abusive - but it does not count as an occupation. It's an abuse of your own citizens.

As to whether the rest of the world views Jerusalem as being forced from the arabs - I remind you once again that violence has occurred in the inception of a great many nations.

At the end of the day the official and legal international recognition of the state of Israel dates back 62 years and includes pretty much all of what you think of as Jerusalem. A suburban area, Al Quds, is part of the West Bank. It may or may not be occupied depending on the situation (I think it currently is).

Anyhow, that is Israel in the eyes of the international community as a legal body - whether you like it or not.

That does not mean it's right for Israel to occupy neighbours, evict arabs from their homes or any of its other crimes, but just as China's occupation of Tibet brings condemnation, it still doesn't stop China being China or Beijing being it's capital. Same for Israel, and pretending 1948 didn't happen is just denial really.

Both the Israelis and Palestinians are going to be there to stay really. There's no way the likes of Hamas will terrorize Israel into submission, and there's no way Israel can oppress the Palestinians from existence. What's needed is a new paradigm, a recognition of a two-state solution and the UN to keep the two sides apart until the hotheads from either side cool down.

Anything else is just drawing out the pain really. Claiming Israel as recognised in the 1940s isn't legitimate when it is just entrenches angry Israelis in further "us against them" mentality and justifies their most violently nationalistic elements, just as portraying the Palestinians as terrorist animals does likewise.

So what would you call an occupation? It appears your view is not the accepted view. When Palestinians have no rights in law and the Israelis hold the power , what else is it?

You believe that Hamas are acting without being able to resolve this dispute, I think they know that. Its years of degradation and oppression that makes them act, not the thought of victory. Israel rubs their noses in the dirt, they oppress and continue to steal more and more land. The arrogance and contempt Israel shows fuels the fire, till they show respect and give back the land from the six day war, nothing will improve. The problem is too many hard liners from fundamentalist Jewry, who refuse to accept that their government must make concessions.