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Israel and the middle east.

 
 
Maud Dib
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 12:38 pm
@xris,
xris;170036 wrote:


So you acted against insurgents in Gaza did you? and you worked along side Israelites against the Palestinians? I find that very interesting, thats not common knowledge. The navy seals acting for the Israelites in Gaza.:perplexed:


I never said this. I work with people who work with the Isrealis and perhaps you didn't understand the principle of a private military contractor, which is what my current occupation is. Every military in the world has private military contracts, that is, they hire ex-soldiers to help if they need superior support than what there standard troops can give. Look some up, and learn something new.

But what I do is besides the point. You British do not have a better record. You olbviously do not remember the American, Australian, Irish, and South African revolutions. :sarcastic: You all did a splendid job putting those down, (not that Im complaining)
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 12:50 pm
@Maud Dib,
Maud' Dib;170434 wrote:
I never said this. I work with people who work with the Isrealis and perhaps you didn't understand the principle of a private military contractor, which is what my current occupation is. Every military in the world has private military contracts, that is, they hire ex-soldiers to help if they need superior support than what there standard troops can give. Look some up, and learn something new.

But what I do is besides the point. You British do not have a better record. You olbviously do not remember the American, Australian, Irish, and South African revolutions. :sarcastic: You all did a splendid job putting those down, (not that Im complaining)
When you can understand the difference between an open uprising and insurgency, I might just find your opinions of value. Private security is nothing new to me and it dont impress me..So now your information about the Israeli , Palestinian conflict is third hand, so no better than mine, is it?
Maud Dib
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 01:23 pm
@xris,
xris;170442 wrote:
When you can understand the difference between an open uprising and insurgency, I might just find your opinions of value. Private security is nothing new to me and it dont impress me..So now your information about the Israeli , Palestinian conflict is third hand, so no better than mine, is it?


I suppose not, but I have fought alongside ex-Isrealis and I have yet to see them fire on civilians. But if you want to go there, then No. Neither of us has any right to form an opinion on this, yet here we are. And really thats all they are, opinions. We can circle eachother forever at this point and I see that it really makes no difference to you what I say, and the same applies from you to me.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 01:30 pm
@Maud Dib,
Maud' Dib;170454 wrote:
I suppose not, but I have fought alongside ex-Isrealis and I have yet to see them fire on civilians. But if you want to go there, then No. Neither of us has any right to form an opinion on this, yet here we are. And really thats all they are, opinions. We can circle eachother forever at this point and I see that it really makes no difference to you what I say, and the same applies from you to me.
I have soldiered with mercenaries from Angola and they where the pits but they where great drinking buddies. I have witnessed torture and thought nothing of it . BUT we cant condone the killing of Palestinian civilians.
Maud Dib
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 01:33 pm
@xris,
xris;170458 wrote:
I have soldiered with mercenaries from Angola and they where the pits but they where great drinking buddies. I have witnessed torture and thought nothing of it . BUT we cant condone the killing of Palestinian civilians.


Nor can we watch the Isrealites be forced from there homes.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 02:23 pm
@Maud Dib,
Maud' Dib;170459 wrote:
Nor can we watch the Isrealites be forced from there homes.
Whose homes? whose land?
qualia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 04:10 pm
@xris,
Just to keep up with present activities, news today: Israeli forces attack 'a flotilla of aid ships'. Accusations of 'state terrorism' and 'global condemnation' hit most of the world's headlines: Deadly Israeli Raid on Aid Flotilla Draws Condemnation - NYTimes.com and here Israel accused of state terrorism after assault on flotilla carrying Gaza aid | World news | The Guardian
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 04:36 pm
@qualia,
qualia;171405 wrote:
Just to keep up with present activities, news today: Israeli forces attack 'a flotilla of aid ships'. Accusations of 'state terrorism' and 'global condemnation' hit most of the world's headlines: Deadly Israeli Raid on Aid Flotilla Draws Condemnation - NYTimes.com and here Israel accused of state terrorism after assault on flotilla carrying Gaza aid | World news | The Guardian


Yes, that flotilla of garbage scows intentionally provoked an Israeli response. Israel is not going to permit the blockade of Gaza to be broken, so that bombs can be sent in to murder Israelis. They did nothing wrong except that they did not blow up one of the scows. Next time I hope they do.
qualia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 05:14 pm
@kennethamy,
Rather than these kind of rants, do you have any news sources from Europe or the USA today to back such a claim - notably, the implicit suggestion that bombs were going to be sent to Israel via these aid ships? For the sake of understanding and critical assessement, I think it would be nice to have another perspective if they can be provided?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 05:29 pm
@qualia,
qualia;171424 wrote:
Rather than these kind of rants, do you have any news sources from Europe or the USA today to back such a claim - notably, the implicit suggestion that bombs were going to be sent to Israel via these aid ships? For the sake of understanding and critical assessement, I think it would be nice to have another perspective if they can be provided?


The garbage on the scows would allow no inspection of the cargo. End of story. Again, I ask whether they or your really expected that Israel would let the blockade be broken simply like that. Was that to be expected? It was an intentional attempt to provoke a confrontation. It did so. End of story.
Maud Dib
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 05:40 pm
@qualia,
qualia;171424 wrote:
Rather than these kind of rants, do you have any news sources from Europe or the USA today to back such a claim - notably, the implicit suggestion that bombs were going to be sent to Israel via these aid ships? For the sake of understanding and critical assessement, I think it would be nice to have another perspective if they can be provided?


Listen, they had to raid. Wether there were bombs or not, the Flotilla was at least carrying activists that were supposedly going to join the Gaza rebellion, ( I dont care if you guys dont think its a rebellion so dont jump on my ass. I simply needed to call it something).

Military lesson: a blockade's purpose is to keep supplies and reinforcements from reaching those who are being blockaded.

As to proving that there were no bombs, I would ask you to prove that all those ships had "humanitarian" supplies on them :sarcastic:
qualia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 05:50 pm
@kennethamy,
Ah, so no bombs then, pure rhetoric! I was hoping for more than mere banality. Such a stance belittles the user, the reader and forum itself. The calculated use of violence to attain goals that are political or ideological in nature has inevitably been Israel's persuassion - indeed, isn't that a very definition of terrorism itself?
Maud Dib
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 08:15 pm
@qualia,
qualia;171438 wrote:
Ah, so no bombs then, pure rhetoric! I was hoping for more than mere banality. Such a stance belittles the user, the reader and forum itself. The calculated use of violence to attain goals that are political or ideological in nature has inevitably been Israel's persuassion - indeed, isn't that a very definition of terrorism itself?



That is true...... Unless you win. Then its called something else. War is War no matter how you slice it. The loser is slandered and the victor is praised. You cannot deny this logic, or am I the one who is mistaken?
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 02:19 am
@Maud Dib,
Maud' Dib;171433 wrote:
As to proving that there were no bombs, I would ask you to prove that all those ships had "humanitarian" supplies on them :sarcastic:

You can't prove a negative - all you have to go on is the news reports and statements of he organisations involved - all of which state that there were no munitions of any sort found on the flotilla.

Even Israel admits there was nothing there but food aid, cement, wheelchairs, paper and water purification equipment. It denies the convoy was humanitarian, but gives no reason for such an opinion other than "they shot first" - which those on the boats deny.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 12:58 pm
@Dave Allen,
Might is right, thats Israels idea of diplomacy. Attacking another countries vessel in international waters is piracy. The Israelites have no legal right to boards these vessels. You need a UN agreement to act in this way.

It appears any action against them is an act of terror and anything they do is in self defence. A major problem for Israel, this ill conceived military action.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 02:02 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154446 wrote:
There were nomads there, and few settlements except for the Jewish settlements. Read some history.

The coastal plain is very inhabitable. It would be surprising if only nomads and a few Jewish settlers found this land attractive. After all, it is part of the fertile crescent. That really would be mysterious but perhaps this is the result of some kind of divine intervention?
0 Replies
 
Maud Dib
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 04:26 pm
@xris,
xris;171765 wrote:
Might is right, thats Israels idea of diplomacy. Attacking another countries vessel in international waters is piracy. The Israelites have no legal right to boards these vessels. You need a UN agreement to act in this way.
.


The Flotilla belonged to no country. And the U.N. is flawed, thats all I will say. To many countries in one Alliance, but thats all I will say for the time being. Wether the U.N. permits them or not, the Isrealis will keep the Blockade until Gaza is annexed into Isreal. I doubt anyone will stop them and I really dont think they should.

As I have said before, Gaza is under blockade. That also means that supplies are not allowed to be taken into the country. It doesn't really matter if there were bombs or any munitions because they dont want anything going into the area. Its really a logical way to end the conflict by weakening Gaza and then pushing them into Egypt as refugees. This is their plan if the blockade persists, and is will contain the least amount of civilian casualties in the event of inevitable Isreali takeover. So if the Blockade is felled, then Isreal will have to notch the bombing schedule up a notch.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 05:00 pm
@Dave Allen,
The Gaza flotilla was what used to be called "a nonviolent protest". I'm not sure what the spin-doctors call it these days.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 02:52 am
@Maud Dib,
Maud' Dib;171798 wrote:
The Flotilla belonged to no country. And the U.N. is flawed, thats all I will say. To many countries in one Alliance, but thats all I will say for the time being. Wether the U.N. permits them or not, the Isrealis will keep the Blockade until Gaza is annexed into Isreal. I doubt anyone will stop them and I really dont think they should.

As I have said before, Gaza is under blockade. That also means that supplies are not allowed to be taken into the country. It doesn't really matter if there were bombs or any munitions because they dont want anything going into the area. Its really a logical way to end the conflict by weakening Gaza and then pushing them into Egypt as refugees. This is their plan if the blockade persists, and is will contain the least amount of civilian casualties in the event of inevitable Isreali takeover. So if the Blockade is felled, then Isreal will have to notch the bombing schedule up a notch.
Every ship must be registered with a certain country and carry its flag. I can never work out your views, do you think what you suggest is legal or morally acceptable? We all know Israels intentions that's why those who oppose them are growing in numbers. With this arrogant attitude Israel will never know peace. If it thinks occupying others lands is a victory, it will be sadly disappointed. I dont normally correct spelling mistakes as my spelling is atrocious but don't you think you should spell Israel correctly? considering you tell me how much you know about the country.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 04:38 am
@Maud Dib,
Maud' Dib;171798 wrote:
The Flotilla belonged to no country.

The ship which was illegally boarded and attacked on which deaths occurred was Turkish and clearly identified itself as such by carrying great big Turkish flags stern and aft.

Quote:
And the U.N. is flawed, thats all I will say.

Yeah - but it still manages to do more good on any given day than any other institution in the world throughout history. Of course it's flawed - everything is - what it's flawed in comparison to is what's important.

And whether the UN is flawed or not - attacking and capturing another nation's vessel without due provocation in international waters is piracy. That's been an article of laws between nations from long before the UN.

Quote:
To many countries in one Alliance, but thats all I will say for the time being.

But that's the point of the security council, allowing the UN's self-appointed exemplars to make the most important decisions.

Quote:
Wether the U.N. permits them or not, the Isrealis will keep the Blockade until Gaza is annexed into Isreal. I doubt anyone will stop them and I really dont think they should.

Israel cannot annex Gaza without breaking every treaty it has signed in the past 50 years. It will suffer from economic sanctions from almost every country it trades with - particularly it's largest trading partners in the middle east, and it will solve no problems militarily either. It will create a bigger bloc within Arab-Israeli politics, and a bigger Arab-Israeli demographic within Israel. It will prove to rogue states and warlords around the world that the Geneva Convention and UN ratifications are a sham and not even applied to or by those who claim to uphold them. It will prove that Iranian opponents to Israel were actually right all along about it's plans and it will give cause for those in the West Bank, Golan Heights, Egypt and Jordan to worry about Israel once again seeking to expand its ambit into other territories some zionists claim a right to because of the borders of biblical Israel.

To pretend that Israel would just do this is to indulge a fantasy. Even China doesn't act that way towards Tibet because of the likely repercussions. Instead Israel (and China) try and inflict a slow kill, resource drain, economic death, populace oppression - but people are tough, they don't give up like that. They grow some blitz spirit.

Quote:
As I have said before, Gaza is under blockade. That also means that supplies are not allowed to be taken into the country. It doesn't really matter if there were bombs or any munitions because they dont want anything going into the area. Its really a logical way to end the conflict by weakening Gaza and then pushing them into Egypt as refugees.

That might have been their main political objective - but they've botched it now haven't they? Egypt are talking of making their border with Gaza permeable again - so they are no longer going to support the blockade - which means no blockade at all really because it required Egypt's cooperation. That worked whilst Egypt hated Hamas more than they did Israel - but this could alter that. Turkey are talking about sending more aid ships with military escorts - which obviously marks the effective end of Israel's relationship with it's only real regional ally. Ireland have sent an aid ship to dare Israel to treat them likewise. Virtually every leader of any country you care to name save the US has condemned an attack on a Turkish vessel in international waters and has called for an end to the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.

Morally Israel was never in the right regarding Gaza - but now they've blundered strategically as well - allowing the world to see the sort of behaviour Gazans have to bear all the time.
0 Replies
 
 

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