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Israel and the middle east.

 
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 03:44 am
Are Israels actions of murder, genocide, oppresion and occupation in the middle east equal to the immorality of the nazis during WWII?
Sounds Almost rediculous, but what makes the killing of the many worse than the killing of a few (not that its a few). Joseph stalin said, 'one death is a tradgaty, a million is a statistic.'
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Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 04:44 am
@Ali phil,
Ali;154395 wrote:
Are Israels actions of murder, genocide, oppresion and occupation in the middle east equal to the immorality of the nazis during WWII?
Sounds Almost rediculous, but what makes the killing of the many worse than the killing of a few (not that its a few). Joseph stalin said, 'one death is a tradgaty, a million is a statistic.'


I would say it is not similar but what is happening in the middle east surely is wrong. The American support of Israel to steal the land from the Palestinians is wrong and they have every right to be upset with the US and Israel. Many are being killed simply because they are Palestinians.

How many people would gladly allow someone to take over your home and tell you to leave? Israel has been doing that for over sixty years to them and it is only getting worse because they don't have much left to lose.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 05:31 am
@Ali phil,
It's "not that immoral" only because big USA are there to fend off any harsh critisism, surely many have tryed to vaguely point out all the wrong doings Ireal are doing, but big USA are there to back them up, and Isreal always whine you bad bad antisemetics! ..whenever they feel just a little pressed and caught in their misdeeds.

..it's sickening, basicly I don't see any difference, it's both immensly cynically, no one dares step in only because of USA.

..it has to stop!

What really puzzles me, is why all the presidents who have tryed to make peace in the middle east, doesn't first kick Isreal in the nuts, to really show that they mean buisness, and doesn't side with anyone! Why are the presidents such big idiots?

Guess only american presidents can be that utterly stupid.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 06:31 am
@Ali phil,
Ali;154395 wrote:
Are Israels actions of murder, genocide, oppresion and occupation in the middle east equal to the immorality of the nazis during WWII?
Sounds Almost rediculous, but what makes the killing of the many worse than the killing of a few (not that its a few). Joseph stalin said, 'one death is a tradgaty, a million is a statistic.'


Now, that is a nice objectively neutral question. Have you any more like them? For example, "How do you feel about the Palestinians who are terrorists, and who bomb innocent people for no good reason except that they hate Jews?".
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:05 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;154406 wrote:
It's "not that immoral" only because big USA are there to fend off any harsh critisism, surely many have tryed to vaguely point out all the wrong doings Ireal are doing, but big USA are there to back them up, and Isreal always whine you bad bad antisemetics! ..whenever they feel just a little pressed and caught in their misdeeds.

..it's sickening, basicly I don't see any difference, it's both immensly cynically, no one dares step in only because of USA.

..it has to stop!

What really puzzles me, is why all the presidents who have tryed to make peace in the middle east, doesn't first kick Isreal in the nuts, to really show that they mean buisness, and doesn't side with anyone! Why are the presidents such big idiots?

Guess only american presidents can be that utterly stupid.


Actually the reason they support Israel is because the Christian leaders at the time of establishing it, believed they could self fulfill a prophecy. That once Israel was established their beloved Jesus could return. There is only one problem though. There is a mosque sitting on the site where the temple is suppose to be rebuilt before Jesus can show up. I would not be surprised if within the next ten years or so, that mosque gets conveniently destroyed by a "off target US missile".

These leaders want Jesus to return so bad, they don't care who has to suffer in the process. Who has to lose their home, and who gets killed in the cross fire. All that matters to them is that Jesus will return. But to make it happen a bunch of people need to lose their lives. This is the ONLY reason they wanted to establish Israel where it currently is. I mean if they really wanted to find a home for the Jews, why not pick some place that actually wanted them?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:07 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;154421 wrote:
Actually the reason they support Israel is because the Christian leaders at the time of establishing it, believed they could self fulfill a prophecy. That once Israel was established their beloved Jesus could return. There is only one problem though. There is a masc sitting on the site where the temple is suppose to be rebuilt before Jesus can show up. I would not be surprised if within the next ten years or so, that masc gets conveniently destroyed by a "off target US missile"

These leaders want Jesus to return so bad, they don't care who has to suffer in the process. Who has to lose their home, and who gets killed in the cross fire. All that matters to them is that Jesus will return. But to make it happen a bunch of people need to lose their lives. This is the ONLY reason they wanted to establish Isreal where it currently is. I mean if they really wanted to find a home for the Jews, why not pick some place that actually wanted them?


Eh, who was there who did not want them?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:26 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154424 wrote:
Eh, who was there who did not want them?


Um try the Palestinians. They are stealing their land, but I thought I mentioned that already.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:30 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;154431 wrote:
Um try the Palestinians. They are stealing their land, but I thought I mentioned that already.


But what gave the Palestinians the right to say that the Jews were not wanted? There were many Jews already in Palestine at the time. And, in fact, the Jews had two nations there in ancient times. The Palestinians who lived there had never had any kind of government there. They were nomads. The Palestinians never had any title to the land. You need to read a little history.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:34 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154435 wrote:
But what gave the Palestinians the right to say that the Jews were not wanted? There were many Jews already in Palestine at the time. And, in fact, the Jews had two nations there in ancient times. The Palestinians who lived there had never had any kind of government there. They were nomads. The Palestinians never had any title to the land. You need to read a little history.


You are trying to bend what I was saying. The US came in and basically told the Palestinians they had to leave. Not only that but year after year Israel takes more and more from Palestine. Check the maps from when Israel was first established to present day and you will see the constant encroachment.

Think about it. Imagine some foreigners coming into your home at gun point and telling you, "This is not your home anymore, go some where else." That is exactly what did and is happening. The Palestinians get labeled the bad guys but as far as I can tell the only bad guys are the Israelis and US backers.

It does not matter if they had any government there or not. It was their home. So you mean to tell me that if you can't provide any governmental backing for your home then anyone should be allowed to come in and take it?

"The Palestinians never had any title to the land. You need to read a little history."

So you are saying that the Jews always held the title to the land?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:53 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;154438 wrote:
You are trying to bend what I was saying. The US came in and basically told the Palestinians they had to leave. Not only that but year after year Israel takes more and more from Palestine. Check the maps from when Israel was first established to present day and you will see the constant encroachment.

Think about it. Imagine some foreigners coming into your home at gun point and telling you, "This is not your home anymore, go some where else." That is exactly what did and is happening. The Palestinians get labeled the bad guys but as far as I can tell the only bad guys are the Israelis and US backers.

It does not matter if they had any government there or not. It was their home. So you mean to tell me that if you can't provide any governmental backing for your home then anyone should be allowed to come in and take it?

"The Palestinians never had any title to the land. You need to read a little history."

So you are saying that the Jews always held the title to the land?


What you said was that the Jews were not wanted. And I pointed out that there was no one there who was entitled not to want the Jews there. Isn't that right? Now, it was not the United States who told the Palestinians they had to leave. The other Arab states told that to the Palestinians promising them they would take over when the Jews were defeated. Well, it did not work out that way, as we know. In fact, Israel was establish by an almost unanimous vote by the United Nations. And, guess which nation was the very first to recognize Israel as a state. It was the Soviet Union. What I am saying is that if any group held title, it was the Jews. De facto, the last autonomous government there was that of the Jews. But, of course, that was a very long time ago. Since then it was the Romans, then the Ottoman Empire, and then, after the First World War, it was a British protectorate. There was never an Palestinian government there. There were nomads there, and few settlements except for the Jewish settlements. Read some history.
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:58 am
@Ali phil,
In my opinion, I think it is very sad that many people die because of land.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 08:03 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;154448 wrote:
In my opinion, I think it is very sad that many people die because of land.


Yes, I agree. But the Jews have nowhere to go. So what would you expect them to do?
TuringEquivalent
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 08:08 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154452 wrote:
Yes, I agree. But the Jews have nowhere to go. So what would you expect them to do?


Perhaps come sort of compromise on both sides.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 08:21 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;154457 wrote:
Perhaps come sort of compromise on both sides.


Tell the Palestinians about that. The Israelis already offered what President Clinton and others thought was very generous. But it was rejected by Arafat, who then began the second intifada which cost many more lives, and the Palestinians ended up much worse than before. As the former Israeli foreign minister, Abba Eban said, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity".
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 02:13 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;154421 wrote:
Actually the reason they support Israel is because the Christian leaders at the time of establishing it, believed they could self fulfill a prophecy. That once Israel was established their beloved Jesus could return. There is only one problem though. There is a mosque sitting on the site where the temple is suppose to be rebuilt before Jesus can show up. I would not be surprised if within the next ten years or so, that mosque gets conveniently destroyed by a "off target US missile".

These leaders want Jesus to return so bad, they don't care who has to suffer in the process. Who has to lose their home, and who gets killed in the cross fire. All that matters to them is that Jesus will return. But to make it happen a bunch of people need to lose their lives. This is the ONLY reason they wanted to establish Israel where it currently is. I mean if they really wanted to find a home for the Jews, why not pick some place that actually wanted them?
This doesn't really account for the idiotic and cynically behaviour of Isreal, and illigal expantions of walls and settlements.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 02:36 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;154585 wrote:
This doesn't really account for the idiotic and cynically behaviour of Isreal, and illigal expantions of walls and settlements.


I can see you are neutral about the matter. When the Arabs concede Israel's right to exist, we'll see. Until that, it is the Palestinians who are foolish.
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 03:18 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154587 wrote:
I can see you are neutral about the matter. When the Arabs concede Israel's right to exist, we'll see. Until that, it is the Palestinians who are foolish.
Yes, the arabs claim is also a real and great problem.
Maybe I'm all in the woods with my view, but with more capitalism in the poor regions, they will become more lean and forgiving in their views.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 09:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154446 wrote:
What you said was that the Jews were not wanted. And I pointed out that there was no one there who was entitled not to want the Jews there. Isn't that right? Now, it was not the United States who told the Palestinians they had to leave. The other Arab states told that to the Palestinians promising them they would take over when the Jews were defeated. Well, it did not work out that way, as we know. In fact, Israel was establish by an almost unanimous vote by the United Nations. And, guess which nation was the very first to recognize Israel as a state. It was the Soviet Union. What I am saying is that if any group held title, it was the Jews. De facto, the last autonomous government there was that of the Jews. But, of course, that was a very long time ago. Since then it was the Romans, then the Ottoman Empire, and then, after the First World War, it was a British protectorate. There was never an Palestinian government there. There were nomads there, and few settlements except for the Jewish settlements. Read some history.



I guess you also support the American's stealing the land from the native Americans as well. Since you seem to think a government is the requirement to be able to keep your home. Not surprised to realize that you are a supporter of genocide.

:NOTE: According to what I just researched, they did have a Palestinian government there. It just was not centralized until the first of October 1948. So even though they did have an established government head, the Israelis still encroached and stole the land away from them. It is hard for them to fight back because they don't have a military at all. They go up against US backed Israeli tanks and soldiers with nothing but rocks and sticks.

The whole point I was making had nothing to do with government or military. It was about why they are upset and why they resort to bombing tactics. They have nothing to lose so they use last ditch efforts. Look at it from their perspective.
0 Replies
 
Ali phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 10:18 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154414 wrote:
Now, that is a nice objectively neutral question. Have you any more like them? For example, "How do you feel about the Palestinians who are terrorists, and who bomb innocent people for no good reason except that they hate Jews?".



This is totaly Wrong because it is a fact that Israel has murderd (mossard) genocide (gazastrip) and occupied (palistine + southern lebanon.)

And i was asking the question? Not stating an opinion.


---------- Post added 04-21-2010 at 04:23 PM ----------

kennethamy;154435 wrote:
But what gave the Palestinians the right to say that the Jews were not wanted? There were many Jews already in Palestine at the time. And, in fact, the Jews had two nations there in ancient times. The Palestinians who lived there had never had any kind of government there. They were nomads. The Palestinians never had any title to the land. You need to read a little history.


This is nonsensacal the homes built and owned by palestinians for generations are being demolished by Israel to build new seatlements to bring in jews from overseas (dont dont go calling me racist because i used the word jews.)
Also read up on your history the first 'terrorist attack' in israel was by a jewish man on a palestinian family in there home.

---------- Post added 04-21-2010 at 04:32 PM ----------

kennethamy;154446 wrote:
What you said was that the Jews were not wanted. And I pointed out that there was no one there who was entitled not to want the Jews there. Isn't that right? Now, it was not the United States who told the Palestinians they had to leave. The other Arab states told that to the Palestinians promising them they would take over when the Jews were defeated. Well, it did not work out that way, as we know. In fact, Israel was establish by an almost unanimous vote by the United Nations. And, guess which nation was the very first to recognize Israel as a state. It was the Soviet Union. What I am saying is that if any group held title, it was the Jews. De facto, the last autonomous government there was that of the Jews. But, of course, that was a very long time ago. Since then it was the Romans, then the Ottoman Empire, and then, after the First World War, it was a British protectorate. There was never an Palestinian government there. There were nomads there, and few settlements except for the Jewish settlements. Read some history.



Another puzzling post... why do you think that because they were there 2000 years ago it gives them right to the land? the scotts dont say to all the english get out i have claim to this land because your of roman decient and we were here 2000 years ago.... it just wouldnt happen. Well we're at it why dont we kick everysingle non-aberigine out of Australia. New Zealand for example why dont we kick 70% of the population out of there too and just leave it too the maori, after all they were there first?
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 10:41 pm
@Ali phil,
The Israeli and Palestinian problem is an example of the old maxim "violence begets violence" and that an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the world toothless and blind.

Terrorism induces repression and heightened security which invariably results in a loss of freedom and progress. The non violent protest and resistance of injustice would likely be more effective against a representative democracy such as Israel that at least theoretically is committed to human rights and moral action.
 

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