Israel and the middle east.

@mark noble,

mark noble;167745 wrote:

Hi Guys,

WE, all three know who initiates, mediates and profits from this, and other tragic wars. Let's not pretend otherwise. .

Yes, the Venusians. But I thought that only I knew. How did you ever find out about it? (Be sure to read, The Protocols of Venus, coming soon. It's going to be a Dreamworks movie too! Just can't wait!)

You are even worse than I thought you were!

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;167743 wrote:

So what would you call an occupation? It appears your view is not the accepted view. When Palestinians have no rights in law and the Israelis hold the power , what else is it?

"The occupied territories" are Gaza, the West Bank and other areas that Israel kind of annexed (depending on your point of view) during the six day war.

Israel itself is not occupied, it is its own state.

To compare with China again. China is a nation. It occupies Tibet. But China isn't under any sort of occupation - it just occupies somewhere.

Because Jerusalem is largely part of Israel it isn't occupied - not in the way you suggested earlier anyway - even if Israel slaughtered the inabitants wholesale it still wouldn't be occupied. That isn't what an occupation is.

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You believe that Hamas are acting without being able to resolve this dispute, I think they know that. Its years of degradation and oppression that makes them act, not the thought of victory.

Yup - two state solution and get the peacekeepers in, as I said.

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Israel rubs their noses in the dirt, they oppress and continue to steal more and more land. The arrogance and contempt Israel shows fuels the fire, till they show respect and give back the land from the six day war, nothing will improve.

That's not really fair, they have given back sinai, and parts of Golan Heights, and effectively half of the west bank and gaza. The trouble here is often the settlers, who aren't Israeli as such, but aren't citizens of where they live either. They shouldn't have gone there - but now that they are there were do they go without causing another set of problems?

So it's not enough, obviously, in my eyes, but they haven't simply refused either.

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The problem is too many hard liners from fundamentalist Jewry, who refuse to accept that their government must make concessions.

No, it takes two to tango. I agree Israeli hardliners need to step up to the plate - but there needs to be commitment from Palestinians too.

The trouble is that Israel has such a history of retarding the implementation of a Palestinian Authority or infrastructure, Fatah should have been left in really. However, now that a two state solution is on the cards what needs to happen is an unbiased ajudicator to keep the two sides apart and make sure justice and security are provided in Israel (with the help of the IDF there) and in Palestine.

This situation worked during the 80s, even with no two state solution in sight. It would work even better now I think seeing as a plan is actually available.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167747 wrote:

Yes, the Venusians. But I thought that only I knew. How did you ever find out about it? (Be sure to read, The Protocols of Venus, coming soon. It's going to be a Dreamworks movie too! Just can't wait!)

You are even worse than I thought you were!

Hi Ken,

Nice to see your superiority-complex kicking back in.
"One man's worse is another man's better"

Have a fantastic evening Ken. I won't stop and chat with you though, I have a large bag of Basmati rice that needs counting.

Mark...

0 Replies

@Dave Allen,

I did not say Israel was occupied, even though I think it is, I said Jerusalem. When did it become officially part of Israel. Have I missed something in international affairs, maybe I'm lagging behind but I never believed any one agreed it to be part of Israel except the Israelis.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;167757 wrote:

I did not say Israel was occupied, even though I think it is, I said Jerusalem. When did it become officially part of Israel. Have I missed something in international affairs, maybe I'm lagging behind but I never believed any one agreed it to be part of Israel except the Israelis.

No one has to agree that the capital of a country is the capital of that country. Where did you get that idea that for London to be the capital of the U.K. it had to be agreed by someone or other that it was the capital? Never heard of such a thing!

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167761 wrote:

No one has to agree that the capital of a country is the capital of that country. Where did you get that idea that for London to be the capital of the U.K. it had to be agreed by someone or other that it was the capital? Never heard of such a thing!

So Tel Aviv, is it in Israel and when did it cease to be the capital? Was it the Israelis decision it or was it Americas? Lets keep to facts, not hypothetical ideas the victors think they should impose. Was Berlin anything other than the capital of Germany? Is the capital of Palestine , Jerusalem?

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;167765 wrote:

So Tel Aviv, is it in Israel and when did it cease to be the capital? Was it the Israelis decision it or was it Americas? Lets keep to facts, not hypothetical ideas the victors think they should impose. Was Berlin anything other than the capital of Germany? Is the capital of Palestine , Jerusalem?

What difference does it make? The point is that Israel can change capitals at will every three days if she want's to. What the hell does any other country or body have to do with it? (Bonn was the capital of West Germany for about three decades. Brazil's capital was Rio, and then Brazil erected Brasiliera in the middle of the jungle and designated it as its capital. Philadelphia, then New York, and then Washington D.C. were the capitals of the United States). Some countries have two different capitals: a commercial capital, and a political capital. A sovereign country can organize as it damn well pleases! You just don't concede that Israel is a sovereign country. And that is really what it is all about. All this other stuff is just window dressing.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167769 wrote:

What difference does it make? The point is that Israel can change capitals at will every three days if she want's to. What the hell does any other country or body have to do with it? (Bonn was the capital of West Germany for about three decades. Brazil's capital was Rio, and then Brazil erected Brasiliera in the middle of the jungle and designated it as its capital. Philadelphia, then New York, and then Washington D.C. were the capitals of the United States). Some countries have two different capitals: a commercial capital, and a political capital. A sovereign country can organize as it damn well pleases! You just don't concede that Israel is a sovereign country. And that is really what it is all about. All this other stuff is just window dressing.

Huf and Puff but legality by international rule should be your guide. Berlin was an shall always be the capital of a united Germany, Russia's invasion did not change that....So tell me is Jerusalem also the capital of Palestine or not? I cant imagine you agreeing to Japan, if it had won the war , a war we the british empire helped you out in, making New York the capital of the Japanese empire.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;167774 wrote:

Huf and Puff but legality by international rule should be your guide. Berlin was an shall always be the capital of a united Germany, Russia's invasion did not change that....So tell me is Jerusalem also the capital of Palestine or not? I cant imagine you agreeing to Japan, if it had won the war , a war we the british empire helped you out in, making New York the capital of the Japanese empire.

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. How is there any question about that any more than that Paris is the capital of France? There is no Palestine that I know of. If Japan establish the government of the United States then that government could make Nome, Alaska the capital of the United States. The government of a county designates the capital of that country. End of story. There is no international rule except that for what city a country names its capital. The country is sovereign.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167778 wrote:

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. How is there any question about that any more than that Paris is the capital of France? There is no Palestine that I know of. If Japan establish the government of the United States then that government could make Nome, Alaska the capital of the United States. The government of a county designates the capital of that country. End of story.

So when the international community have their embassies in Tel Aviv and refuse to acknowledge Jerusalem as Israels capital, they are all wrong? I will ask again is Palestine's capital ,Jerusalem?

1 Reply

@Ali phil,

Look, here's a map of Israel showing the borders as agreed in 1948:

http://start.csail.mit.edu/images/texas-maps/middle_east_and_asia/israel_pol01.jpg

Now as you can see Jerusalem is on the border between Israel and the west bank - in fact the border quite clearly meanders into the outline of the West bank to include Jerusalem within Israel. It is marked as the regional capital, of a region which is also called Jerusalem. It has been the capital of Israel since 1950.

The Palestinians also see Jerusalem as their capital, but actually this is one case where there's really no need for conflict - because to Palestinians their adminstrative capital is Al Quds - which isn't part of Jerusalem as it is recognised by the Israelis (on the whole) but a suburb within the West Bank.

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@xris,

xris;167782 wrote:

So when the international community have their embassies in Tel Aviv and refuse to acknowledge Jerusalem as Israels capital, they are all wrong? I will ask again is Palestine's capital ,Jerusalem?

The answer to your question is, no. Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. In is not the capital of Madison, Wisconsin, or Birmingham, England either. You would be absolutely astonished by how many places Jerusalem is not the capital of! And if countries don't want to send their embassies to Jerusalem, then that is because they are scared of the Arabs. Not because Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel.

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167787 wrote:

The answer to your question is, no. Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. In is not the capital of Madison, Wisconsin, or Birmingham, England either. You would be absolutely astonished by how many places Jerusalem is not the capital of! And if countries don't want to send their embassies to Jerusalem, then that is because they are scared of the Arabs. Not because Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel.

Not to mention a capital usually has to be within the borders of said country, and olbviously, Jerusalem is not within Palestine's borders so that would make it somewhat difficult to run a country from a city that hasn't been in your control for 60 years.

I am behind Isreal 100% because of something you British, and we Americans created. Its a little thing called Manifest Destiny. The Roman's did it before us, then England, then the US, then Germany, then Russia, and now Isreal is the only country in the world with the balls to take what they as a culture feel is their's. Or perhaps you would rather give your precious Cornwall back to the Dumnonii. Im sure their rich and thriving culture would love to have such a gorgeous piece of British coastline back within their mighty empire.

2 Replies

@Maud Dib,

Maud' Dib;167853 wrote:

Not to mention a capital usually has to be within the borders of said country, and olbviously, Jerusalem is not within Palestine's borders so that would make it somewhat difficult to run a country from a city that hasn't been in your control for 60 years.

I am behind Isreal 100% because of something you British, and we Americans created. Its a little thing called Manifest Destiny. The Roman's did it before us, then England, then the US, then Germany, then Russia, and now Isreal is the only country in the world with the balls to take what they as a culture feel is their's. Or perhaps you would rather give your precious Cornwall back to the Dumnonii. Im sure their rich and thriving culture would love to have such a gorgeous piece of British coastline back within their mighty empire.

Hi Maud,
Cornwall is just a piece of land (dirt-With a name) Why would it be prescious? Are you frustrated with the people of Cornwall, as a whole, or just one individual who doesn't agree with you? Here's a joke I made up the other day. Hope it cheers you up... What kind of dinosaur has the ability to think outside the box???...A Philosopher-raptor. Ha-Ha.
Please don't blame the welsh people for that, and have a great day, sir.

Ken, when you read this (I KNOW THAT'S NOT A REAL DINOSAUR NAME).

Mark...

1 Reply

@mark noble,

mark noble;167860 wrote:

Hi Maud,
Cornwall is just a piece of land (dirt-With a name) Why would it be prescious? Are you frustrated with the people of Cornwall, as a whole, or just one individual who doesn't agree with you? Here's a joke I made up the other day. Hope it cheers you up... What kind of dinosaur has the ability to think outside the box???...A Philosopher-raptor. Ha-Ha.
Please don't blame the welsh people for that, and have a great day, sir.

Ken, when you read this (I KNOW THAT'S NOT A REAL DINOSAUR NAME).

Mark...

Good thing you added the "ha-ha".

---------- Post added 05-23-2010 at 09:51 PM ----------

Maud' Dib;167853 wrote:

, Jerusalem is not within Palestine's borders

What borders are those? You also talk just as if Palestine were a state. "Palestine" is, as of now, a geographical expression.

0 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167787 wrote:

The answer to your question is, no. Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. In is not the capital of Madison, Wisconsin, or Birmingham, England either. You would be absolutely astonished by how many places Jerusalem is not the capital of! And if countries don't want to send their embassies to Jerusalem, then that is because they are scared of the Arabs. Not because Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel.

I see you feel the need to be evasive and silly. I appreciate that's the only reply you can give considering my evidence.

---------- Post added 05-24-2010 at 04:11 AM ----------

Maud' Dib;167853 wrote:

Not to mention a capital usually has to be within the borders of said country, and olbviously, Jerusalem is not within Palestine's borders so that would make it somewhat difficult to run a country from a city that hasn't been in your control for 60 years.

I am behind Isreal 100% because of something you British, and we Americans created. Its a little thing called Manifest Destiny. The Roman's did it before us, then England, then the US, then Germany, then Russia, and now Isreal is the only country in the world with the balls to take what they as a culture feel is their's. Or perhaps you would rather give your precious Cornwall back to the Dumnonii. Im sure their rich and thriving culture would love to have such a gorgeous piece of British coastline back within their mighty empire.

I am aware that the Palestinians are not in control of their country. It would be extremely difficult considering they have had to defend it against the might of the US and its cohort Israel. If you consider the illegal possession of another's land as reasonable and defendable, it would make my case all the more ethical and yours the idea of a raving nutter.

Historical invasions are for historians not modern diplomatic reasoning. The dumnonni, if you can find any can make a legal challenge if they so require but if they try invasion then we might just oppose them.

0 Replies

@Maud Dib,

Maud' Dib;167853 wrote:

Not to mention a capital usually has to be within the borders of said country, and olbviously, Jerusalem is not within Palestine's borders so that would make it somewhat difficult to run a country from a city that hasn't been in your control for 60 years.

That a country's capital is rarely on its border is a tendancy, not a rule. Jerusalem is on Israel's border too - so according to your logic no one can use it.

Clearly districts of Jerusalem are in Israel, and others in the West Bank. If either state wants to use it as their administrative centre that's perfectly feasable - it's up to them.

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I am behind Isreal 100% because of something you British, and we Americans created. Its a little thing called Manifest Destiny.

And after Germany's attempts to bring about a manifest destiny for themselves resulted in millions of deaths people from the countries you mentioned sat down and decided that maybe there was a better way of doing things that wouldn't end in the savagery and barabarism that states had inflicted on one another throughout the world in an attempt to expand their ambits.

Hence they proposed a new paradigm by which people could manage their affairs without fear of being subjugated or oppressed or wiped out or whatever.

Those countries that we tend to regard as part of a civilised world said that they would cleave to those rules and regulations about being a legitimate state under this new paradigm and signed up to them - those that didn't did not.

Israel claims to uphold these values - but has acted counter to them.

1 Reply

@Ali phil,

You all speak of yourselves as if your more modern, or "civilized", than these people. You may think you could do a better job but I doubt you have any idea of how "civilized" the world actually is. I have served in many conflicts, many not under the control of the U.S. military, 2 of these tours have been in the Middle East. I served in Kuwait during my time with the Navy, and worked in Yemen as well as an independent soldier. War is gorgeous, but the disgusting things that people are able to do to one another are off the battle field. I dont understand what authority you think you have to call someone more barbaric than another.

As to the U.S. using Isreal to agress the middle east, perhaps you are right. But the US only backs Isreal with finance, they have not been seen on either side of that battle. Not to mention the only thing keeping Isreal from bombing the hell out of Iran is the U.S. Whether Iran deserves it or not.

3 Replies

@Maud Dib,

Maud' Dib;168234 wrote:

You all speak of yourselves as if your more modern, or "civilized", than these people. You may think you could do a better job but I doubt you have any idea of how "civilized" the world actually is.

Please, stop being such overmelodramatic. Pointing fingers at everybody is just a poor attitude, without really knowing their oppinions, and it's quite clear you havn't read my post.

1 Reply

@HexHammer,

HexHammer;168240 wrote:

Please, stop being such overmelodramatic. Pointing fingers at everybody is just a poor attitude, without really knowing their oppinions, and it's quite clear you havn't read my post.

No i can honestly say I havent read your post and will make a note to look for it. I am pointing fingers, though not at everyone. Its just that damn word "civilized" that I can't stand hearing come from people when they refer to the Middle East. Its a hard place, and what they think is "civilized" may not be the case for others (if I must be specific, Dave and Xris).

1 Reply

Israel and the middle east.

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