Israel and the middle east.

@Maud Dib,

Maud' Dib;167093 wrote:

The main purpose of creating a non-muslim (thats right, im not saying that it specifically had to be Jewish or ever was) state within the middle east was simply to try to quell radical Islamics. This is the reason the US backs it, ( or at least used to back it). Its purely militarilistic.

As to Isreal being Zionist vs. Jewish, alot of those that were accused during the holocaust were not Jews in faith but in heritage. That is what they mean when they refer to their Jewish neighbors.

Your taking this way to personally Soul Bro.

As to Xris, you have a very good record of stating extremely naive things. Get your facts straight and look at things from different perspectives before you make yourself look even less intellegent.

When you can point out my naivety and point out the errors of my post, I might then consider your post as less than abusive. If any one is making a naive and stupid comment its you. To say Israel was formed to quell the radical Muslims, is beyond naivety, its basically unadulterated crap. The Jews after persecution by Nazis used the instability of the time to create a Jewish state.

0 Replies

@Maud Dib,

Maud' Dib;167093 wrote:

The main purpose of creating a non-muslim (thats right, im not saying that it specifically had to be Jewish or ever was) state within the middle east was simply to try to quell radical Islamics. This is the reason the US backs it, ( or at least used to back it). Its purely militarilistic.

That's not right either I'm afraid.

xris;167220 wrote:

The Jews after persecution by Nazis used the instability of the time to create a Jewish state.

Though I also think that's too simplistic.

Under both the Ottomans and the British Mandate there were plenty of jewish people living in Palestine. The zionist movement was in swing during the early 20th century and you were already seeing a trickle of jewish immigrants from other parts of the world into the area because they were fed up of being persecuted in places like Russia and central europe.

After the horrors of the holocaust this trickle became the proverbial river, and the jews within Israel grew to such numbers that they could justify (in practical terms if not moral ones) the zionist agenda of administering their own state. This led to a resistance (sometimes terrorist in nature) against the British and a sporadic civil war as a swathe of european jewish immigrants made their own "room to live".

In 1948 the League of Nations ratified Israel as a state, as it did the West Bank and Gaza. At this juncture the US opinion of Israel was actually fairly non-committal due to US foreign policy of the time being characterised by not wanting to muddle with the affairs of other nations unless circumstances proved overwhelmingly mitigating.

So the zionist agenda of a specifically jewish state in Israel was facilitated (not exactly deliberately, but as a general consequence) by the LoN, with the tacit approval of the US.

Since then US support for Israel has become concrete. There are many reasons for this. It's partly down to a perceived clash of civilisations between the west and Islam. It's partly down to a strong jewish political lobby. Its partly down to the belief that Israel represents democracy. It's partly down to evangelical christian politicos who want to a fulfillment of biblical prophecy. It's partly down to wanting to be seen to confront the anti-semitism of the present and/or make up for the anti-semitism of the past.

And many other reasons or combinations of the above.

None of which, in my eyes, justifies the occupation, or the refusal of right of return, and many other injustices faced by the Palestinians.

2 Replies

@Dave Allen,

I appreciate your description is a fuller picture but the circumstances of the time facilitated the growth of that state without too much thought by western politicians. Worn down by years of war, no one really had any motivation or the incentive to confront Zionist terrorism in the middle east. The Jewish problem,thousands displaced by war, as they saw it, was not theirs any more. The consideration of the Arab population had little or no support and when you consider the problems Europe had, who can blame them. A convenient answer for us at the time has returned to haunt us all. It is the major reason for Islamic unrest and anger towards the west , it is used to as a recruiting poster for all fundamentalist Muslims. Till Israel becomes secular and stops these constant encroachments on Palestinian lands, we will all find our security threatened.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;167231 wrote:

The Jewish problem,thousands displaced by war, as they saw it, was not theirs any more.

But how were they to know that?

With the benefit of hindsight we can all look at the events surrounding the holocaust and say "that was the last and most egregious blast of european antisemitism". But if you turned to a bunch of jews fresh out of Belsen and said "you don't have to worry about pogroms and death camps any more - from now on it'll just be a few discredited bigots indulging in racist jibes and having the rest of us tell them to shut up!"

Why would they believe you - obviously the chance to make a new home in New York, or Tottenham, or Tel Aviv is going to seem more attractive than remaining in Germany or Soviet-occupied europe.

Whilst you're right that Israel's persecution of the palestinians acts as a recharge point for a battery of jihadist anger I don't think quibbling over the creation of Israel is any help. It was done, it was 62 years ago, even if you could move every immigrant back - it would only cause another set of problems elsewhere and make people suffer for the "sins of their fathers".

What needs to happen is the modern concept of a two state solution, together with the sort of international peacekeeping presence of the 80s.

That way all the hotheads from both sides can cool off whilst people set up the seperate states and get them working, and any criminal activity from either side can be investigated and confronted by professional peacekeepers who avoid civilian deaths.

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

I am with you on the solution but you cant ignore the fact that Israel was born from an illegal act whatever the reasoning. I don't blame those Jews looking for the promise land but they soon forgot the reasons why they secured Israel and turned from the down trodden to the arrogant invaders. Not accepting the errors of history, will not help future resolutions.

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;167225 wrote:

None of which, in my eyes, justifies the occupation, .

What occupation?........................

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

Dave Allen;166982 wrote:

Surely it's up to an individual following a scriptural religion with many different interpretations which interpretation he or she wants to follow and the degree of literalism with which they want to apply in following it?

Dave, with this you are absolutely correct! and you know what, these individuals know exactly where they stand, they stand with the true torah, do you know what the true torah states? make no mistake, orthodox jews have always opposed zionism, why? because zionism is the movement that is for the return to the land of zion, therefore it is heresy to the religion of judaism. This is why jews have always being against the establishment of Israel, but do you think the zionists care for any of this? not the least amount, for this land is much too precious, and as I said before they will stop at NOTHING to secure it.

Dave Allen;166982 wrote:

It would seem unfair to me to expect Jewish people to abide by a particular and strict reading of their holy book - when every other religion in the world includes adherants who interpret their books variously, and ignore some or all of the rules as and when it suits them.

It would seem unfair to have absolute belief in a god that has created everything that exists and that with out you would not be, then after everything this god has done for you, you simply refuse to abide by the few things that he has asked from you simply because it does not suit you. Think about it, what you are saying makes no sense, you are suggesting that it would be okay to take all the rewards but then simply ignore some of the rules as and when it suits you, and then what, they also expect to get into heaven? If people are going to go by there own rules, what would be the point of following a religion in the first place?

Real jews love and respect their god, as such they fully acknowledge and respect their exile from the land, so much so that it is mentioned in prayers.

Dave Allen;166982 wrote:

It isn't up to other people to ban Jews from anywhere because they feel the Torah makes claims about whatever. Let Jews decide that for themselves as individuals..

Again, jews are not banned from zion by other people but by their religion. And indeed they have for long decided, and they do not approve, but Israel has taken it upon them selves to give assent for what they are doing.

Maud' Dib;167093 wrote:

The main purpose of creating a non-muslim (thats right, im not saying that it specifically had to be Jewish or ever was) state within the middle east was simply to try to quell radical Islamics. This is the reason the US backs it, ( or at least used to back it). Its purely militarilistic..

No, this is not true, for these "radical Islamics" are a result of the establishment of Israel, you cannot really expect foreigners to forcibly evict people from their own land and not expect the evictees to respond. If the US were to fall under invasion from any other country would you refer to the US as radical for simply retaliating? this would be like calling the native Americans radical Indians for fighting back against the colonization of their land by the British. So as you can see this is a failed argument. It seems to me that a lot of people are ignorant of the fact that Before Israel was formed, jews lived side by side in peace with fellow Palestinians as brothers, how could this be if all that you see today is bloodshed? Palestinians are not at war against jews, they are at war against zionists.

I think it is about time that people started realizing the truth, and not what is being fed through the news. People say that it should be up to the jews to decide wether or not they should reside in the land. People are oblivious to the fact that real orthodox jews have always spoken against this, I have just gone on google and all I typed in was jews against, and waited to see what came up, so if you do not believe that I speak on behalf of the majority of jews on the matter, you can go on google and see for your self what comes up. The news will tell you of what Israel is causing but they will not tell you that the people who are causing this are not actually the jews but zionists, thereby causing huge ignorance around the world by giving the impression that Israel which falsely calls itself a jewish state, is in accordance to Judaism and the teachings of the Torah, which is NOT the case. so not only do they not differentiate between this key difference, but they fail to acknowledge the fact that true orthodox jews all over the world are against the state of Israel.

The websites indicated to above, make clear as to the fact that before 1948 jewish people lived side by side in peace and harmony with Islamic peoples through out all the arab lands as they had since ancient times. The fact is that is that Palestinians are not against jews but they are against zionism, AS ARE THE JEWS THEM SELVES! In april 28 2005, 10,000 orthodox jews protested the existence of Israel in front of the Israeli consulate in New York City, if 10,000 is the number of people that showed up, I wonder how many are in support, and that was in New York alone! So again, people keep saying that it is a matter for the jews to decide, well, they have! and they communicate their beliefs through peaceful protest but there voice continues to go unheard. Some of these websites also point out the group of zionists that own the media, so it is of not much surprise that people remain ignorant on the beliefs of orthodox jews on the matter.

Maud' Dib;167093 wrote:

to Isreal being Zionist vs. Jewish, alot of those that were accused during the holocaust were not Jews in faith but in heritage. That is what they mean when they refer to their Jewish neighbors..

Do not make this mistake, these people are of no heritage to real jews. In fact if you did as xris pointed out and had DNA tests run on the zionist group that established Israel, you would find that none of them descend from peoples of the holly land, they originated from Europe!

Maud' Dib;167093 wrote:

to Xris, you have a very good record of stating extremely naive things. Get your facts straight and look at things from different perspectives before you make yourself look even less intellegent.

I have nothing against you Maud' Dib, but this is not how you do this. the considerate and courteous way to do this would be via a private message would you not agree?

Please try to be more respectful.

2 Replies

@Soul Brother,

Soul Brother;167248 wrote:

No, this is not true, for these "radical Islamics" are a result of the establishment of Israel, you cannot really expect foreigners to forcibly evict people from their own land and not expect the evictees to respond. .

Why not? Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese, etc. Jews were forced from their land, but you don't notice any Jewish terrorists intentionally blowing up kids in Damascus, do you?

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167258 wrote:

Why not? Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese, etc. Jews were forced from their land, but you don't notice any Jewish terrorists intentionally blowing up kids in Damascus, do you?

Ok that makes it very acceptable then.

So you believe that because this wrong was done onto them, It is ok to do it?

This is like saying that because the English stole the land from the native americans, it is now ok for china to come and take it from the US, would you think this is ok?

---------- Post added 05-22-2010 at 11:12 PM ----------

Maud' Dib;167093 wrote:

Your taking this way to personally Soul Bro..

Perhaps this is true considering I am neither Jewish nor Muslim, but these are fellow humans, brothers in humanity, I simply cannot sit by watching all this happen and think nothing of it, these people are suffering, blood is being spilt every day with countless of innocent lives being lost, lives of children, mothers, fathers, people just like you and me, since 1948 these people have not known the meaning of peace, all because of the despotism of some tyrannous Satanists on a power trip. My life is great, I live in a safe country, I have food in my stomach and I roof over my head, I am more than fine, it is these people that need help, how can I be over here having such a wonderful life knowing that blood is being spilt every day that need no be spilt, believe me if I could I would be there protesting beside them, be it or not my responsibility I cannot help but feel the need to do everything within my power to help. I just cannot comprehend how there are 200 or so countries on earth and they can just sit back and let this happen, even the U.N is doing nothing to stop Israel!

1 Reply

@Soul Brother,

Soul Brother;167263 wrote:

Ok that makes it very acceptable then.

So you believe that because this wrong was done onto them, It is ok to do it?

This is like saying that because the English stole the land from the native americans, it is now ok for china to come and take it from the US, would you think this is ok?

---------- Post added 05-22-2010 at 11:12 PM ----------

Makes what acceptable? All I pointed out is that it is not true that we should not expect the Arabs not to be terrorists as you said we should not, since the same thing happened to Jews and they did not become terrorists. But maybe you think that Arabs and Jews are different, and that we should not expect from Arabs the same behavior as we do Jews.

1 Reply

@Ali phil,

Xris. If you close in prison, the neighbour has the right to occupy your house?

When you will return from prison, you expel the neighbour from your house?

By what right Arabs have occupied not arabian land?

Russia have grasped Poland by the right of force in 1780. We have presented Poland - to Poles in 1991. We simply HAVE left their country. And you have left India.

Why to Arabs simply NOT to LEAVE Israel? Jews left Israel in 70 AD.

2 Replies

@Marat phil,

Marat;167269 wrote:

Why to Arabs simply NOT to LEAVE Israel? Jews left Israel in 70 AD.

Oh, that is an easy question to answer. The reason they do not leave Israel is that their life in Israel is much better than their life would be in any Arab county. In fact, when there was talk of parts of Jerusalem becoming a part of a Palestinian state, the authorities in Israel were overwhelmed by requests from Arabs in Jerusalem to become Israeli citizens. They are not fools, you know. They do not want to become citizens of an Arab Palestinian state when their life is so much better in Israel.

0 Replies

@Marat phil,

Marat;167269 wrote:

Xris. If you close in prison, the neighbour has the right to occupy your house?

When you will return from prison, you expel the neighbour from your house?

By what right Arabs have occupied not arabian land?

Russia have grasped Poland by the right of force in 1780. We have presented Poland - to Poles in 1991. We simply HAVE left their country. And you have left India.

Why to Arabs simply NOT to LEAVE Israel? Jews left Israel in 70 AD.

So with your logic. Israel should be seeing Jews leave, real soon.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;167273 wrote:

So with your logic. Israel should be seeing Jews leave, real soon.

Why, for heaven's sake? What kind of "logic" would that be. Arabs won't leave because they know that life for them in Israel is much more preferable than life in any Arab land (even if other Arab lands admitted them, which is highly dubious). Why would any Jews go elsewhere? Very peculiar thinking.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167267 wrote:

Makes what acceptable? All I pointed out is that it is not true that we should not expect the Arabs not to be terrorists as you said we should not, since the same thing happened to Jews and they did not become terrorists. But maybe you think that Arabs and Jews are different, and that we should not expect from Arabs the same behavior as we do Jews.

But you are saying that because the Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese, etc. were forced out of their land without retaliating, we should expect the Palestinians to give way to zionists without retaliating. Going by this theory if the US were to come under invasion you would expect the US to leave without retaliation.

If you were stupid enough to say that actually believe this simply to try and correct one of my statements you would be contradicting you're own beliefs, because I am assuming if the Chinese told the US to get out, you yourself would expect you're government to retaliate would you not ken?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167276 wrote:

Why, for heaven's sake? What kind of "logic" would that be. Arabs won't leave because they know that life for them in Israel is much more preferable than life in any Arab land (even if other Arab lands admitted them, which is highly dubious). Why would any Jews go elsewhere? Very peculiar thinking.

I was referring to Marat's logic. He answered my post by saying after Russia had invaded Poland they left after fifty years. With that logic the Jews are due to leave Israel.

Because Israel is not secular, Arabs face discrimination but then any country that gives you a better way of life will stop you from complaining. I dont think those Arabs in Jerusalem would agree with your sentiment. They are part of Israel by force not by consent. Why should any Arab want to leave his occupied country? The alternative is a refuge camp in foreign lands.

You rightly say, Arabs have their share of blame in this continuing conflict, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

0 Replies

@Soul Brother,

Soul Brother;167279 wrote:

But you are saying that because the Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese, etc. were forced out of their land without retaliating, we should expect the Palestinians to give way to zionists without retaliating. ?

Well something like that, yes. I was saying that since Jews did not think that the injustice done to them merited blowing up little kids, arabs might have thought the same way. I guess not, though. Well, as is said, different strokes for different folks. I was pointing out a moral difference.

---------- Post added 05-22-2010 at 10:21 AM ----------

xris;167282 wrote:

Because Israel is not secular, Arabs face discrimination but then any country that gives you a better way of life will stop you from complaining. I dont think those Arabs in Jerusalem would agree with your sentiment. They are part of Israel by force not by consent. Why should any Arab want to leave his occupied country? The alternative is a refuge camp in foreign lands.

.

If your view is that it is principle and not the practical consequences of departing that keep Arabs in Israel, I am afraid that all the evidence is against you. Besides, it is implausible just given what we know about human nature that any people would remain where things are bad for them rather than going to a better place simply on principle. People usually go where they think they and their families would be better off. But the Arabs want to remain in Israel. That is the evidence. Besides, as I have already pointed out, it is not as if other Arab lands would admit them even if they did want to leave. They would not admit them.

It is sad that you think the only alternative would be a refugee camp in other Arab lands. Realistically, that is probably so. But that was not the alternative for the Jews who were thrown out of Syrian etc. They were immediately welcomed and assimilated into Israeli society.

As I have already said, different strokes for different folks.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167258 wrote:

Why not? Syrian, Jordanian, Lebanese, etc. Jews were forced from their land, but you don't notice any Jewish terrorists intentionally blowing up kids in Damascus, do you?

Hi Ken,

You wouldn't notice. Certain nations are VERY good at covert operations! Remeber Munich, lockerbie? Think about it, Ken?

Thank you, have a great day.

Mark...

1 Reply

@mark noble,

mark noble;167294 wrote:

Hi Ken,

You wouldn't notice. Certain nations are VERY good at covert operations! Remeber Munich, lockerbie? Think about it, Ken?

Thank you, have a great day.

Mark...

I just thought about it. I have no idea what you are driving at. My question is, have you?

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;167296 wrote:

I just thought about it. I have no idea what you are driving at. My question is, have you?

Hi Ken,

Yes.

Thank you, and be brilliant.

Mark...

1 Reply

Israel and the middle east.

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