Israel and the middle east.

@xris,

xris;166545 wrote:

Yes I do consider Tel Aviv to be occupied territory. Occupied by Israelis, who have no moral right to be there. The Russians occupied Poland at approximately the same time, in your opinion were they there by right of conquest? The Chinese have occupied land since that time, is that illegal or legal in your opinion. I cant differentiate because the world in general and America in particular find it acceptable.

Personally I would say Isreal's right to govern cities and territory within it's 1948 borders is fair enough. Tel Aviv is an Israeli city according to all the international rules of law it is a signatory to and claims to uphold.

Gazan airspace, waters, borders, brown areas, settlements and their west bank equivalents? No. These are occupied territory and remain so despite the putative withdrawal.

I also think arabs who left places like Tel Aviv in times of upheaval should be allowed to return to their homes as part of the right of return - an article of human rights which, again, Isreal purports to uphold.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;166551 wrote:

Fortunately, Israel has the Bomb.

If they ever use it!!! Don't bother putting the cat out...

0 Replies

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;166552 wrote:

Personally I would say Isreal's right to govern cities and territory within it's 1948 borders is fair enough. Tel Aviv is an Israeli city according to all the international rules of law it is a signatory to and claims to uphold.

Gazan airspace, waters, borders, brown areas, settlements and their west bank equivalents? No. These are occupied territory and remain so despite the putative withdrawal.

I also think arabs who left places like Tel Aviv in times of upheaval should be allowed to return to their homes as part of the right of return - an article of human rights which, again, Isreal purports to uphold.

Who the hell is occupying Gaza but Hamas?

To hold that Tel Aviv is an Israeli city, and therefore, to acknowledge Israel, but yet to advocate that all the Arabs who want to go back to Israel be allowed to do so, is a pragmatic contradiction. It is not possible for both to be true. So, to advocate it is either ignorant or disingenuous.

That is why I appreciate Xris's position. He says what the Arabs believe, and no beating around the bush. But Israel will drop the Bomb before it is destroyed. It would be a mistake to tell yourself stories.

0 Replies

@Ali phil,

Do Hamas control Gazan airspace? No. The Brown areas? No. The waters? No. Settlements? No.

Actually Ken, there are huge numbers of arabs within Isreal. Approximately one and a half million.

Some of them - a lot of them - are even Jews!

Who would have thought it eh? A panethnic group that are able to practice different religions! Gasp! Would you credit it?

Well no, you probably wouldn't.

Demographically speaking, Jews (whether arab or not) are likely to become a minority within Israel by 2050.

Israel claims to operate by the Geneva Convention and international law.

This law states that if the members of a household leave their homes, or are forced into refugee camps, during a conflict then after the war they can go back to their homes.

It's called the right of return.

It explicitly bans other people from coming to their homes and squatting there. That would be looting.

I think xris was a fool to fall for the obvious trap you set him by referring to Tel Aviv as occupied territory. Personally I'd be willing to believe that he thought you were referring to somewhare like Ramallah or Hebron. I reckon you are strawmanning him by suggesting he holds the opinions of the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah, and also tarring all Palestinians with the same brush. We'll see if he agrees when he next contributes, I suppose.

1 Reply

@Ali phil,

Ali;154395 wrote:

Are Israels actions of murder, genocide, oppresion and occupation in the middle east equal to the immorality of the nazis during WWII?
Sounds Almost rediculous, but what makes the killing of the many worse than the killing of a few (not that its a few). Joseph stalin said, 'one death is a tradgaty, a million is a statistic.'

Israel has returned itself the historical lands. Palestin is Jews land. This territories to Jews was given by God. Arabs in Palestin are newcomers from Arabian peninsula. Let are go home. Jews it is a lot of generations fairly bought from Palestinians of building and the lands. Palestinians sold the land of the ancestors. Now why they complain? Arabs are the people which worships to the Satan. And they live near to Jews! The super nation!

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;166556 wrote:

Do Hamas control Gazan airspace? No. The Brown areas? No. The waters? No. Settlements? No.

Actually Ken, there are huge numbers of arabs within Isreal. Approximately one and a half million.

Some of them - a lot of them - are even Jews!

Who would have thought it eh? A panethnic group that are able to practice different religions! Gasp! Would you credit it?

Well no, you probably wouldn't.

Demographically speaking, Jews (whether arab or not) are likely to become a minority within Israel by 2050.

Israel claims to operate by the Geneva Convention and international law.

This law states that if the members of a household leave their homes, or are forced into refugee camps, during a conflict then after the war they can go back to their homes.

It's called the right of return.

It explicitly bans other people from coming to their homes and squatting there. That would be looting.

I think xris was a fool to fall for the obvious trap you set him by referring to Tel Aviv as occupied territory. Personally I'd be willing to believe that he thought you were referring to somewhare like Ramallah or Hebron. I reckon you are strawmanning him by suggesting he holds the opinions of the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah, and also tarring all Palestinians with the same brush. We'll see if he agrees when he next contributes, I suppose.

Of course there are many Arabs in Israel. They are citizens of Israel, and they have representation in the Knesset. They have all the privileges of citizenship except one, They are not admitted into the IDF.

How many Jews are citizens of Egypt, or Jordan (and Israel has peace treaties with those countries)? Or what about Syria or Lebanon, or the Gulf States? Or have representation. The answer is, none. How many Jews thrown out of Syria, with only the clothes on their backs, have the right of return, would you say? And how many of those Jews are now festering in refugee camps because Israel will do nothing for them? Right again. What nonsense you talk. Really. It is shameful.

Xris can speak for himself. If he misspoke, he can correct it. If he thinks he was a fool for speaking the truth, he can say that too. I suppose that is what Arabs would say too. That he was a fool for speaking the truth. You know as well as I do, and as Xris knows, that for Arabs a two State solution would be only a preliminary to a one state final solution (in Hitler's sense of that term). Admitting it is, of course, another matter. You might think you were a fool if you did so.

Never again!!

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;166575 wrote:

Of course there are many Arabs in Israel. They are citizens of Israel, and they have representation in the Knesset. They have all the privileges of citizenship except one, They are not admitted into the IDF.

Really - what about the bedouin regiments?

Ken - get this - I'm not arguing in favour of Egyptian policy, or Syrian, or Jordan or anywhere else that adopts a sectarian policy of any ilk. I'd advise them to recognise Jewish nationals and afford them the rights of any other citizen.

What you are doing is projecting your disdain of arabs or muslims onto me and assuming I feel that way about jewish people.

I don't.

But as much as I oppose sectarianism anywhere I fail to see why I shouldn't also oppose the criminal oppression of people living in the occupied territories.

Now you can continue to lie about this, and indulge in your hypocrisy, and spout bigotry at ethnic groups you dislike - it doesn't matter to me really because it's clear your point of veiw is constructed from prejudice and false information. You know virtually nothing about what it is you're actually discussing.

Nomads? Withdrawal?

You don't know what you're on about.

I'll continue to counter with a balanced veiw, and the facts, as when it suits me. You continue to ignore questions and spout nonsense if that's your wont.

'Never again' can (and should) apply to any people who suffers oppression. Jews. Muslims. Arabs. Anyone.

2 Replies

@Dave Allen,

I reiterate my view that Israel occupied Arab lands illegally. It cant be denied. I know in truth justice will not be served by attempting to evict the Jews from Israel but I also know that this constant excusing the israelis for further incursions, will harden opinion against Israel. This arrogance and contempt of Arab rights will hinder Israels need for peace.

When a tribe that has known such pain, then act so cruelly, begs me to ask , does suffering ever give humanity empathy for others plight? it appears not.

0 Replies

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;166586 wrote:

'Never again' can (and should) apply to any people who suffers oppression. Jews. Muslims. Arabs. Anyone.

Yeah, I know. We are all victims, therefore, (sotto voce) to hell with never again for the Jews! Don't kid yourself. This time is not like last time. Jamais plus! Fiat Justicia Ruat Coelum!

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;166922 wrote:

Yeah, I know. We are all victims, therefore, (sotto voce) to hell with never again for the Jews! Don't kid yourself. This time is not like last time. Jamais plus! Fiat Justicia Ruat Coelum!

So I am "obfuscatory" for using the word gestalt - but you're now making your points in Latin?

You are, time and time again, a rank hypocrite.

I didn't say to Hell with never again for the Jews - though I'd deny their exclusive right to it - I explicitly stated that neither Jews nor Muslims should suffer from oppression. Nor anyone else for that matter.

2 Replies

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;166926 wrote:

So I am "obfuscatory" for using the word gestalt - but you're now making your points in Latin?

Hypocrite.

I didn't say to Hell with the Jews - I explicitly stated that neither Jews nor Muslims should not have to suffer from oppression. Nor anyone else for that matter.

French too. Look it up. You may learn something. The arabs have no idea what oppression is. They were not rounded up and slaughtered. In fact some of them helped do the rounding up. Oppression my left foot. If they did not screw around, there would now be no refugee camps, no check point, so walls. If they did something besides yell "Allahu Akbar!" there would be peace and prosperity for all.

0 Replies

@Ali phil,

Is that why so many palestinians associated with the peace movement are assassinated by the IDF? Like Dr Thabet?

1 Reply

@Marat phil,

Marat;166558 wrote:

Israel has returned itself the historical lands. Palestin is Jews land. This territories to Jews was given by God. Arabs in Palestin are newcomers from Arabian peninsula. Let are go home. Jews it is a lot of generations fairly bought from Palestinians of building and the lands. Palestinians sold the land of the ancestors. Now why they complain? Arabs are the people which worships to the Satan. And they live near to Jews! The super nation!

So if I buy a chunk of Russia then its my right to call it xristiania and evict all the Russians. Historical references are silly and prove nothing..Shall we all have DNA tests to find our originality to place us correctly on the globe?

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Dave Allen;166931 wrote:

Is that why so many palestinians associated with the peace movement are assassinated by the IDF? Like Dr Thabet?

No idea that is true, so the question is question-begging.

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Hi All,

SO many nations, ravaged by war,
Victims of pride and frustration
Remnants of bygone decisions, gone by
Casualties... of CIVILISATION!

Thank you, and journey greatly...

Mark...

0 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;166934 wrote:

No idea that is true, so the question is question-begging.

No it isn't.

You obviously don't even understand what begging the question is.

To beg the question is to respond to a query about an opinion with the same opinion, in some form or other. Or to justify an opinion with itself.

So if I give an opinion such as "the IDF kill Palestinian kids". And you say "why do you think that?" And I say "because they do."

THAT would be begging the question.

If I say "Is that why so many palestinians associated with the peace movement are assassinated by the IDF? Like Dr Thabet?"

The only thing I'm actually begging is an answer. I've framed the question clearly, and provided an example.

But you can't provide answers can you?

0 Replies

@xris,

xris;166933 wrote:

So if I buy a chunk of Russia then its my right to call it xristiania and evict all the Russians. Historical references are silly and prove nothing..Shall we all have DNA tests to find our originality to place us correctly on the globe?

Hi Xris,

You should buy a chunk of New Zealand, it's a beautifully magnificent country.

Don't do the DNA thing though, Kenya's not the place to go right now, and never the place for 7billion angry apes.

Thank you Xris. be well, sir.

Mark...

1 Reply

@mark noble,

kennethamy;154435 wrote:

But what gave the Palestinians the right to say that the Jews were not wanted?

Ken, I see that you are very ignorant on the matter, so much so that I am beginning to believe that you are only persisting with your erroneous argument simply to avoid being rectified, you simply refuse to be defeat, don't you?

You seem to (think) that the prohibiting of the jews from that land was induced by the palestinians, This shows that you are completely unaware of what is really going on. Let me make this clear, the jews where forbidden from the this land by god! it is stated in the very torah that god forbid the establishment of a jewish state in the holly land, the jewish people are forbidden from the land not by the Palestinians and not by any other human, but by they're own creator! Any authentic jew will acknowledge and accept this. Now you ask your self ken, if god exiled the jews from the holly land, why are these "jews" directly disobeying his clear orders? This is because they are not jews. The people behind the establishment of Israel are zionists, they call them selves jews but they are really the complete opposite to Judaism and the teachings of the torah, as such, any "jew" that chooses to reside in Israel cannot call him self a real jew, for he is deliberately defying what was instructed by god.

I want to make this very clear, [SIZE="3"]zionism DOES NOT represent Judaism and the teachings of the torah.[/SIZE] I cannot stress this enough, authentic rabbis always oppose zionism. these people are causing unspeakable atrocities, not only are they forcibly taking land that they no right to, but they were, are and will commit genocide to do so. these people are doing all this while calling them selves jews and stating to israel a jewish state, by doing so they are creating mass confusion and leaving jews all over the world with this reputation, people will watch the news on Israel and what they are causing, and this is the name that these zionists are leaving for the jews, when in reality authentic jews are peaceful people and are completely against this movement. It is absolutely unacceptable the name that they are leaving for jews and for Judaism as a religion, they have literally hijacked judaism.

kennethamy;154452 wrote:

Yes, I agree. But the Jews have nowhere to go. So what would you expect them to do?

No where to go? what do you mean by this? Where do you think they were before the establishment of Israel? do you think all of these jews just all of a sudden appeared out of thin air?

kennethamy;166408 wrote:

Israel cares for it citizens, and protects them by building defensive walls, and maintaining strict check-points. Obviously, there would be no occasion or need for these unless there was a need for them.

Cares for its citizens? hmm, I'm sure you will be surprised then to know that these same people that established israel and "cares for its citizens" are the same people that are hugely responsible for the holocaust. Now you wander ken, hmm why would these kind jews that care for their citizens play part in such an event against fellow jews? [SIZE="3"]THEY ARE NOT JEWS! THEY ARE ZIONISTS![/SIZE] and they do not care about jews, they care about the land, in fact so much so that the holocaust happened because of this same land!

Tell me ken, why is it that YOU think the U.S is so committed to Israel? out of 200 or so countries on Earth, Why Israel? oh and it just happened to be the zionist country, what is so special about this land that they will stop at nothing to secure it? well ken?

[ATTACH]123[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]124[/ATTACH] Yes god bless America and Israel!

[ATTACH]125[/ATTACH] My point could not get any clearer than this.

[SIZE="3"]Are you guys starting to connect the dots now?[/SIZE]

1 Reply

@Soul Brother,

Soul Brother;166970 wrote:

KLet me make this clear, the jews where forbidden from the this land by god! it is stated in the very torah that god forbid the establishment of a jewish state in the holly land, the jewish people are forbidden from the land not by the Palestinians and not by any other human, but by they're own creator! Now you ask your self ken, if god exiled the jews from the holly land, why are these "jews" directly disobeying his clear orders? This is because they are not jews.

Surely it's up to an individual following a scriptural religion with many different interpretations which interpretation he or she wants to follow and the degree of literalism with which they want to apply in following it?

It would seem unfair to me to expect Jewish people to abide by a particular and strict reading of their holy book - when every other religion in the world includes adherants who interpret their books variously, and ignore some or all of the rules as and when it suits them.

It isn't up to other people to ban Jews from anywhere because they feel the Torah makes claims about whatever. Let Jews decide that for themselves as individuals.

Just like anyone else. No more, but no less.

This isn't to deny the ugly side of Zionism - but I don't see why a Jewish person shouldn't live within Isreal or anywhere else - there was never a time when no Jewish people lived in Isreal.

0 Replies

@Ali phil,

The main purpose of creating a non-muslim (thats right, im not saying that it specifically had to be Jewish or ever was) state within the middle east was simply to try to quell radical Islamics. This is the reason the US backs it, ( or at least used to back it). Its purely militarilistic.

As to Isreal being Zionist vs. Jewish, alot of those that were accused during the holocaust were not Jews in faith but in heritage. That is what they mean when they refer to their Jewish neighbors.

Your taking this way to personally Soul Bro.

As to Xris, you have a very good record of stating extremely naive things. Get your facts straight and look at things from different perspectives before you make yourself look even less intellegent.

2 Replies

Israel and the middle east.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know