Moslem Invasion of Europe.

Maybe this is what our military refers to when they use the phrase "collateral damage." Ya think?

this thread is becoming very intolerant and bigoted in tone

- the root of most religions is that you shouldn't kill, commit adultery etc - all the extra nasty bits have been put in by people over the centuries.(oppression of women, hatred of other religions...)

Mankind has a thoroughly unpleasant side. Modern society attempts to improve this, not always very succesfully. Even chimps go to war against other groups of chimps, using weapons (sticks and stones), so it is unfortunately deep in our primitive personalities to dislike and fight off those who are different.

Religion is a convenient label for differences, as is colour of skin. If these didn't exist then it would be something like blue eyes or ginger hair or the handicapped.

As in this thread, people make sweeping statements about the various religions and societies and their beliefs without any actual knowledge.

I too live and work in a multi racial city and for the most part the groups tick along quite well. We tolerate each others differences, participate in each others festivals - particularly the Hindu ones, which as Gautum would tell you are colourful and fun. At the Diwali fireworks there are people of all races and colours - they don't share the religious beliefs but enjoy the spectacle. Hindu friends buy Christmas presents. We have a huge Caribbean carnival every year, there is a huge candlestick thingy in the park for Hanukah (?have a spelt/got that festival right???, Jewish), the moslems celebrate Eid after a month of fasting for Ramadan ...

For me this is the way forward - absorb the 'hordes' as we absorbed the Angles and Danes and any Romans who stayed behind and the Normans and the Celts etc etc etc

Nah, they just got to buy less.

Tho it's true that prices were lower in comparison, in the East, for some years after 1991, too - but the difference in wages was bigger than the difference in prices!

Well said Viv!

nimh

I knew the answer to my question, but thanks anyway!

Viv

I agree its good to celebrate the diversity of mankind. But I have a problem with some cultures which make animal sacrifice, genital mutilation or canabalism central to their belief. Are you going to say they are wrong?

I agree with you Steve.

I would also add that nobody forces people to detonate themselves, fly planes into buildings or whatever, or just simply blow up the 'opposite' religion.

Only the intense programming of some religions which starts at birth and leaves children with no concept of life other than how they have been 'programmed', can make these people do such terrible acts and think that they are going on to a better place. If they only knew that this is their only life, they would perhaps use their time on earth a little more wisely.

Vivien,

I don't see colour as reason to be different. But I see a person who has been 'programmed' from birth to view everyone who does not have their particular programming as somehow inferior, untrustworthy, unclean, immoral or dare I say it, an infidel as someone who will never fully accept that everyone is equal and a life is a life.

Before we moved home, both my daughters had a moslem friend in their class. They would occasionally come around for their evening meal etc. in the early infant years. However, as soon as the children started to go to mosque every day after school, the friendship began to suffer as it was more important for them to be programmed at the mosque every day.

Now children must be allowed to be children, they must be allowed to grow and learn together. As soon as you start to divide them and give them different belief systems, you are on a single track road.

I have not 'given' my children a religion. I could have made them most any religion I chose, with a little work, but I love them too much and have too much respect for their individuality (had they been boys for example, I could have mutilated their genitals).

When they are old enough, and have made their own mind up and choices about the world, and if they want to choose a spiritual path, I will support them in any way I can. They grow up, not hating any religions, not having any colour predjudices and treating everyone as themselves. Its a shame all religions can't teach the same basic principles because despite all the apologists for the various religious adversaries out there, religion will be the continuing cause of very bloody strife in the world, all in the name of some non existent deity.

Unlike their father, from the content of your posts.

I think we can give BillyS credit for hoping to raise his children in a different way. Most parents want a better world for their children. We might not all agree about the way they try to accomplish that, but I can appreciate the goal.

You are older and wiser than I am. madame. I will defer to you.

Hobitob,

Wanting to get the best social upbringing, and more importantly, education for my kids and moving home to do so doesn't make me a racist, it makes me a realist. Indeed, 30 years ago, my cousin married the only black girl in the town where i was born and I now have lots of coloured relatives. If being unable to understand peoples religious angst makes me a racist then I hold up my hand and I will duly fall on my sword.

Sort of like my brother in law, who insists that he isn't a racist...he had "friends in the air force who were n@ggers. "

[quote="Steve

I agree its good to celebrate the diversity of mankind. But I have a problem with some cultures which make animal sacrifice, genital mutilation or canabalism central to their belief. Are you going to say they are wrong?[/quote]

yes i would feel totally free to disagree with these - these are prime examples of what i was describing when i talked about the extra silly rules added over the centuries by 'priests'.

but i wouldn't condemn the whole religion because of the parts i disagree with - i don't agree with celibacy in the catholic church - i think it is unnatural and causes the scandals currently damaging the church. An unmarried priest cannot know what married life and having children is really like. I don't agree with their stance on birth control either.

A great many immigrants where i live have suffered genital mutilation (Somalian women) and of course it is routine for moslem men. For male children circumcision is no longer available free from the NHS on relgious grounds - the moslem council organise this - it is avaiable of course on medical grounds. Female genital mutilation is illegal. I think both are uneccessary and barbaric in a modern age but that is only a part of their religion - once again imposed by men over centuries.

Canibalism was not so much a religion as a belief that in eating a brave enemy his power would transfer to you - a superstition. It was part of primitive society all over the world.

It has also been practised by people involved in a plane crash in high mountains in recent years to enable them to survive and this i would not condem. (I don't know if i could have done it - no-one could know for sure until the situation happened to them)

I just feel that instead of dismissiing a whole religion out of hand, that the particular points that are unacceptable are the ones to highlight.

Vivien,

I can't disagree with anything you said. But the very point of even highlighting some of these stoneage, barbaric religious practices will leave you branded a racist.

I cannot understand how most western counties allows male genital religious butchery but makes the same for females illegal....... yep, religion is definately male orientated!

Like proclaiming to eat the flesh and drink the blood of your god? How about immersing folks in water to wash away imagined sins? Or believing that icons or bits of bone are magic? How about believing tehre is a spirit world where people go after their bodies die?


Er.....the Orthodox church practiced female circumcision up through the 11th century.

just a thought : i wonder how the NATIVES/INDIANS felt when the europeans came to the americas (and other places, of course) , took their land, made them become christians (and in many cases killed them outright). do we really have that much to complain about muslims, hindus ... that come to OUR(?) lands now ? i may not always agree with their style of living, their customs and their religions, but in the main they seem to be quite decent people. even in our small canadian city(population 120,000) we have many races living quite peacefully next to each other in the community. we have many teachers at the university, businesspeople, labourors ... that came from foreign lands(both women and men) that are a great asset to the community. i wonder if the problem occurs if there is overcrowding in the large cities, and would it really be fair to blame the immigrants for that ? (i'm sure glad the canadians allowed us to come to canada, and coming to a small city has certainly made it easy for us to make new friends without any problems.) i'm not very good at quoting the bible, but isn't there something about "seeing the splinter in our neighbour's eye and not seeing the block of wood in our own eye"(i'm sure i don't have it correct, but trust the meaning will not be lost ... someone out there have the correct wording ?) hbg.

Billy, I think hobit highlighted the word coloured because although you used it as an acceptable term to describe your own relatives, back in the States the term has pejorative overtones. Am I right hobit? It seems to be out of PC fashion at the moment....


I think most organised religions end up as a technique for controlling people. If I had my way I would make it absolutely illegal to pollute a child's mind with religious images. What is it the Jesuits used to say? Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man?

Having said that, nearly everyone has a part of themselves that makes them curious about the great questions of life. You wouldn't be human if you didn't wonder. When my cat looks at the moon it thinks absolutely nothing. No sense of beauty, wonder awe curiosity [even for a cat] nothing. How do I know....well of course he told me...but thats another story.

We all have a part of us that is susceptible to exploitation by organised religion. The frightening thing is just what a grip it can have on people. Thats why I think the Church of England is about as good as it gets. Its so wishy washy that you can believe just about anything and still be in communion.

So I do think some religions/cultures are more "civilised" than others. [I know its horribly subjective]. In general I reject all organised religions, but I am not an atheist.

Its also frightening that the clear division between church and state in countries like the USA and in Europe where it exists eg France, is constantly being challenged and eroded by religious groups. For example in France muslim girls at state schools are allowed to wear headscarves in class, because the authorities are not prepared to enforce the law.

I think that the basic introductory premise of this thread is that the large immigration of Muslims in to Europe may somehow constitute a threat to the institutions of those nations. In the Prussia of the Great Elector, Protestants who were displaced by the Wars of the Reformation and the Thirty Years War were encouraged to immigrate, and give substantial material support. France has a tradition of welcoming the refugees of oppression, such as the Spanish in the early 19th century, the Italians and Poles in the middle of that century, Hungarians in the 1950's, and many others. The French always welcomed the populations of their colonial territories. The English have taken in French Protestants, Polish refugees of the middle 19th Century, and since the Second World War, immense numbers of Commonwealth immigrants.

Sure, there will always be those who opposed immigration and immigrants, and some few who express their hatred violently. The history of the United States shows this as well. I would say, however, that although i think Europeans are more reluctant to accept immigrants than the United States has done, these nations nevertheless do accept immigration, and try to adjust as well as they can. It is worth considering the effect on Islam of large numbers of Muslims living in nations which are more or less democratic--at any event, not the repressive regimes so common in the Muslim world. From 17th century Prussia to the present day, history, in my opinion, shows that nations are ultimately better off when they open their doors to immigration. America has benefited greatly from immigration, and is the richer for it, materially and culturally. For example, thanks to the very odd Croation, Nicolas Tezla, we have the bi-phase, asynchronous generator, which makes alternating current, and therefore makes this type of communication possible--we don't need to build walls, we need bridges.

Sentanta
Sentanta: APPLAUSE!

BBB

Sentanta
Just to reiterate this was the original question.

. Should this be the future for Europe Can we expect the two cultures to live together in peace or is conflict inevitable?