Moslem Invasion of Europe.

Good for them. They are atypical. Sleep well, oh dyspectic senior citizen.

Hobitbob
Atypical? I suppose based upon your limited or non existent experience they are atypical and so are the many people I have been associated through my lifetime. I will say that the immigrant of today and those of yesterday were a different breed. Those in the past expected and got nothing and it was sink or swim. Today immigrants come with the hands out and expect those handouts. As for loyalties their only loyalty is to what they can get.

I suppose, this is based upon your limited or non existent experience, especially re European (and French) immigration. (You reminded me that the original question was related to Europe in general and not France in particular.)

Walter
I was only responding to Hobbitbob.

I read through most of this and find myself reacting negatively to au1929 being accused of racism, when what he (she?) presents are valid problems people are trying very hard to resolve.

Might we consider the possibility that not all immigrants are the same?
That perhaps most Muslim ones do not seek to accept the culture of their newly-adopted country, but seek instead, to demand that their newly-adopted country change its own established culture, and become more like the Islamic one from which they've just escaped?

In which case it's totally legitimate to ask, "If that's what you want, why did you leave your own country and come here (to France, Holland, the USA, etc.)?"

katya8

So you mean, most Muslims immigrate to (other) European coutries with the demand that these countries change their culture to an Islamic?

Tell this one of the millions Turkish citizens here, if you want to have a great laughter!

Concerning immigrants, even by the second generations, the languages and many of the customs of the old countries of the first generations are lost, especially if there isn't any contact with those countries, or their cultures.

To expect immigrants to completely shed all the customs and traditions of the old countries is unrealistic and bigoted. Look at Asian, Italian, and Jewish communities in the US. They are fully American, and yet are distinguishable by many of the customs they've retained from the old countries, with some individuals holding on to these more than others.

What's wrong with that?

An (European) eyample, showing exactly the opposite, are the Polish immigrats to Germany in the late 19th, early 20th century: since they had own churches/priests, own union (Zjednoczenie Zawodowe Polskie - ZZP), party (Polska Partia Socjalistyczna zaboru Pruskiego - PPS) etc, it took until the third and forth generation to assymilate.

[See for example: John J. Kulczicki: The Polish Coal Miners' Union and the German Labor Movement in the Ruhr, 1902-1934: National and Social Solidarity (Oxford, New York: Berg, 1997); The Foreign Worker and the German Labor Movement: Xenophobia and Solidarity in the Coal Fields of the Ruhr, 1871-1914 (Oxford: Berg Publishers, 1994); School Strikes in Prussian Poland, 1901-1907: The Struggle over Bilingual Education (Boulder, Colorado: East European Monographs, distributed by Columbia University Press, 1981), // rev. ed.: Strajki szkolne w zaborze pruskim, 1901-1907: Walka o dwujezyczna oswiate (Poznan: Biblioteka Kroniki Wielkopolski, 1993).]

Walter, have no idea what you're trying to tell me, with that post?

InfraBlue - there's nothing wrong with the fact that it takes time to get adjusted to a different society. I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

Or not.

Sorry about the typo in "countries".

But you wrote

katya8 wrote


This would mean that most of nearly 4 million Turkish citizens in Germany want to establish an Islamic culture here ... besides that they didn't 'escape' but went voluntarily here.

(And most Moslemic French citizens are French, because their ancestors became French due to the colonilisation.)

From theArab News

Poland and Germany share a common border. The Poles of whom you speak are an exeption precisely because of the proximity of the two countries. They weren't far from the old country and culture. Heck, some "Poles" became "German, " and some "Germans" became "Poles" merely because of national/political lines drawn in the soil of the borders of those countries.

In the US, an exeption, also, to what I wrote are the Mexican-American communities along the Southwestern border, and other places in the US. Some "Mexicans" became "Americans" merely because of a shift in the Rio Grande before it was channelized. There are people there who don't speak English, or speak an English/Spanish hybridized language, "Spanglish."

I know the very same phenomenon occurs along the German/Polish border, and I was told of the name for the hybridized language there by a German who's from those parts, who now lives in the US among the people who speak Spanglish (well, he lives in one of the White enclaves there in that city), but I forgot the word.

Do you, Walter, know what that German/Polish hybrid language is called?

The only contact that German to whom I refer has with "the old country" is when he goes on vacation there about once a year.

That "old country" was in Germany when he was born; after THE WAR, it became Poland.

InfraBlue

No, I wasn't speaking about Poles near the border.

I wrote about those in the Rhurdistrict: a couple of borders between the two parts (especially at the time, when that immigration happened) and at least 800 kilometers.

VÉNISSIEUX, France This town's largest mosque is temporarily leaderless, after its chief cleric was expelled from France last week for advocating wife beating, stoning and other medieval Islamic views at odds with the principles of the modern French state..
The cleric, Abdelkader Bouziane, was the fifth cleric expelled from France this year on charges that they were spreading a dangerously divisive brand of radical Islam. The country has kicked out dozens since 2001..
"The government cannot tolerate the public statement of views that are contrary to human rights, attack the dignity of women and call for hate or violence," the country's new interior minister, Dominique de Villepin, said last weekend..
France has long maintained one of the strictest antiterrorism programs in Europe, in part because it was hit early by Islamist terror and because it has the largest Muslim population on the Continent. Many other countries in Europe have been far more tolerant in allowing radical discourse to flourish in their mosques..
But making such a hard-line stance stick is difficult, even here in a country that has been more willing than most of its European neighbors to limit free speech in the interest of a calm and cohesive society..
Bouziane, 52, won an appeal that would allow him to return from his native Algeria to France, despite the Interior Ministry's presentation to the court of evidence that Bouziane has links to groups that support terrorism..
The embarrassed ministry announced late Monday that it would take the case to France's highest court, and a frustrated Villepin said Tuesday that if the justice system tied his hands in such cases he would seek tougher laws..
At a wide-ranging news conference on Thursday, President Jacques Chirac said that France might modify its deportation laws and that if Bouziane returned to France he would "immediately and naturally be the object of judicial proceedings.".
The expulsion and possible return of Bouziane highlight a thorny issue that most countries across Europe are facing as they struggle to fulfill the needs of their growing Muslim populations and protect traditional civil liberties while trying to curb the spread of extremist Islamic thought..
Part of the problem is a dearth of domestically trained clerics to lead congregations of European-born Muslims. As a result, mosques like that in Vénissieux often have to rely on imported imams or self-proclaimed clerics who espouse fundamentalist beliefs that grate against Europe's more tolerant societies. "The problem is that we have 1,500 imams, but the great majority of them don't have any knowledge of the land," said Azzedine Gaci, who represents the Muslims of the Rhône-Alps region at the national Muslim Council..
Only about 10 percent of the imams preaching in France's mosques and prayer rooms are citizens, and half do not speak French, according to the Interior Ministry..
The issue has become more pressing in the 10 years since a wave of Islamist terrorism swept France and has continued to spread around the world. The fundamentalist clerics provided inspiration and support for Islamists returning from Afghanistan and the jihads of Eastern Europe - among them the hijackers who attacked the United States on Sept. 11, 2001. They have also helped prepare fresh recruits from among Europe's frustrated, disenfranchised second-generation immigrant youths now rediscovering their religious roots..
Villepin said this month that France would have to help Muslims to train moderate prayer leaders here to encourage the emergence of a tolerant "French Islam." The country's government-sponsored Muslim Council is working on a training program but says it needs state aid. But any government move to support such a program faces huge obstacles because of France's laws barring the state from meddling in religion..
The bearded, robed men streaming into the mosque for Friday prayers last week refused to answer questions from outsiders, arguing that they have been misrepresented by the news media..
But extreme fundamentalist congregations in Vénissieux and other working-class suburbs east of Lyon, France's second-largest urban center, have produced violent militants in the past..
In September 1995, the police killed an Algerian Islamist in a shootout near Lyon after recovering his fingerprints from an unexploded bomb found on the tracks of the high-speed rail line between Lyon and Paris. The man was believed to have been behind a spate of bombings that had terrorized Paris earlier that year..
In January this year, the police arrested six men from Vénissieux who were suspected of being part of a terrorist group linked to Al Qaeda that had planned a chemical weapons attack in Paris in 2002..
Two Vénissieux men, meanwhile, are among those people taken prisoner two years ago in Afghanistan and who are now detained at the United States naval station in Guantánamo Bay, Cuba..
France has tried to regulate its five million Muslims by creating a national advisory body to address issues like the training of clerics and to act as the Muslim representative in dealing with the government. But the country's most extreme fundamentalists have refused to take part..
"People like Mr. Bouziane live in another world," said Gaci, who is part of a broader trend of young, politically active second-generation Muslims here who are struggling to establish a united front to give Europe's Muslims a stronger voice. He worries that the scattered but spreading fundamentalist movement is hurting that effort..
Bouziane has preached at several mosques in and around Lyon since arriving in France from Algeria in 1979. After a six-month stint in Saudi Arabia, he began preaching at the Vénissieux mosque..
The imam's extreme views were well known among Muslims in the region and drew the attention of the local authorities last year after he reportedly issued a fatwa, or religious edict, calling for jihad against American interests in France..
The Interior Ministry issued an expulsion order in February, but did not immediately execute it. Then, in early April, a local publication, Lyon Mag, published an interview with Bouziane in which he spoke about his support for the Koran's teaching that adulterous women should be stoned and that it was a man's right to strike his wife if she was unfaithful..
France's national press picked up the article, and within days the Interior Ministry executed the expulsion order..
But the expulsion drew sharp criticism from many Muslims across France, who saw it as part of a broader attack on Muslims by the French state. The country has recently issued a law banning girls from wearing Muslim veils at school, for example..
The New York Times

Re: Moslem Invasion of Europe.
Oh, its the case yes. But not that much you think. here in germany are some turkish ppl, but it's okay. Im city you wont see much turkish ppl, and thats really normal here.

If you cant compare it to the hispanics in the US. there are never that much moslems in here.

Well, i dont think so. The germans favorite fast food is McDonalds. :wink: