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"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent...

 
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:35 pm
@Nitish,
Amperage wrote:

God, while having ultimate authority, chooses not to deploy it over our free will.


Did God tell you this himself? Or, where did you acquire this information?
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:39 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117006 wrote:
Did God tell you this himself? Or, where did you acquire this information?
God did not tell me this, no. I could very well be wrong. Through my understanding of the word of God and through my own logic I have deduced this. If free will does not exist, or better yet, If we were not given at minimum 1 free will decision to choose to follow God or not, be it something that took be place here on earth or be it something that took place long before we broke into the world, then I become a very confused person. I'm not even saying we have to have free will now, here, on this earth. My belief though is that we made a decision. Now the decision may have been mutual or that decision may have always been known but that doesn't preclude the fact that we made it

this also does that mean that those who made the opposite decision are doomed or something like that so don't misunderstand me.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:44 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;117007 wrote:
God did not tell me this, no. I could very well be wrong. Through my understanding of the word of God and through my own logic I have deduced this. If free will does not exist, or better yet, If we were not given at minimum 1 free will decision to choose to follow God or not, be it something that took be place here on earth or be it something that took place long before we broke into the world, then I become a very confused person. I'm not even saying we have to have free will now, here, on this earth. My belief though is that we made a decision. Now the decision may have been mutual or that decision may have always been known but that doesn't preclude the fact that we made it

this also does that mean that those who made the opposite decision are doomed or something like that so don't misunderstand me.


When you say "we made the decision", who exactly are you referring to? I don't remember making any such decision. Did I forget that I made the decision?
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:47 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;117001 wrote:
God left gaps, not for evil, but, yes, evil does occur at times in those gaps. By the same token it is possible to do "good things" in those gaps.



If God is omniscient, then God would have known what would occur in the gaps that he left. And God chose to not do "good things" in those gaps that were left. So God is responsible for the evil.


Amperage;117001 wrote:
No? What if an omniscient being knew the best way to use it's power for good was to not use it in some instances? This is not possible?



To make that plausible, you need to tell us a story in which it would be the case that it is better to not bother helping people than to help them. Keep in mind, with humans, we often do not know enough or have enough ability to help, and so it may be that for us, leaving some things as they are is better than us messing around with them. But that does not give us any reason to suppose that God should not be fixing things, or that God should have made a world with the problems in the first place.

Indeed, when we judge a craftsman qua craftsman, we judge him by the products he makes. With an imperfect world, the only logical conclusion is that, if it is made, it is made by an imperfect being. A perfect craftsman would only make perfect things.


Amperage;117001 wrote:
To me, free will does explain evil. Evil occurs whenever someone chooses to do something other than what is right despite the fact



But you have already said that free will exists in a perfect heaven. Therefore, having free will does not explain evil.

Also, as already stated, a child being crushed by an earthquake, dying a slow and painful death, is not explained by human free will, as people never chose for earthquakes to occur. Nor does it explain the existence of painful diseases. Any God who allows such things is evil. And in the case of diseases, if God created everything, then God created the diseases, evidently with the idea in mind that people would suffer with them. So God has set up the world to make people suffer, which means that God is a sadist. Which means that God is very evil indeed.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:49 pm
@Nitish,
Pyrrho wrote:

Any God who allows such things is evil.


God's allowing something evil to occur, means that God is evil?
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 02:52 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117009 wrote:
When you say "we made the decision", who exactly are you referring to? I don't remember making any such decision. Did I forget that I made the decision?
first let me just say a couple things. I do not speak for any denomination or any other Christians and my beliefs are that of my own. second, I tend to think of things in terms of well x must be right but if x isn't right then it must be y.

when I say we made the decision I'm talking about our spiritual selves. The us that(IMO) will exist after we leave this body(die) and perhaps(and IMO did) existed before we were born. Now of course the problem arises well if the "we" made the decision before we were even born, whats the point of coming to earth or being born, why not just divvy things up right then and there? My only answer is that I believe it must have something to do with coming to a knowing of God or a point of discovery in some way. Or perhaps there are joys that can be experienced through "life as we know it" that cannot be experienced any other way.

---------- Post added 01-04-2010 at 02:59 PM ----------

Pyrrho;117010 wrote:
To make that plausible, you need to tell us a story in which it would be the case that it is better to not bother helping people than to help them. Keep in mind, with humans, we often do not know enough or have enough ability to help, and so it may be that for us, leaving some things as they are is better than us messing around with them. But that does not give us any reason to suppose that God should not be fixing things, or that God should have made a world with the problems in the first place.
learning to ride a bike is the only example I can think of at this second. We possess the power to always hold someone steady but it may not be "good" or in their best interest to do so.

Pyrrho;117010 wrote:
Indeed, when we judge a craftsman qua craftsman, we judge him by the products he makes. With an imperfect world, the only logical conclusion is that, if it is made, it is made by an imperfect being. A perfect craftsman would only make perfect things.
I will ask you a similar question that I asked xris: without the blueprints for how something is supposed to be created how can you judge if it is not created perfectly? What you call imperfections may very well be the exact way they were designed.





Pyrrho;117010 wrote:
But you have already said that free will exists in a perfect heaven. Therefore, having free will does not explain evil.
and I also stated that while this is true, it may be that case that in heaven, while having free will, no one chooses to do evil.
My contention is that here on earth if everyone chose not to do evil then there would therefore be no evil.
And already explained that IMO only free will beings are capable of evil so hurricanes and earthquakes are neither evil nor good for they have no intent
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:02 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117011 wrote:
God's allowing something evil to occur, means that God is evil?


Yes. (Assuming we are speaking of a being that is both omnipotent and omniscient, of course.)

If you can stop some evil from occurring, without any harm to yourself or others, and you do not, then that is evil. With people, very often they are unable to do so, because they don't know about it (not being omniscient), or lack the strength or power to act adequately (not being omnipotent).

This, by the way, is the ordinary way of thinking of things.

Imagine that I am in a house, with two other people; one an infant, and another a man who is cooking dinner. Suppose the man falls dead from a heart attack, and as a consequence spills hot oil over a large area of the kitchen, and the house catches on fire. I am looking through the doorway from another room, seeing this happen, without me being touched with any oil. The infant is in a crib, and I am of normal ability, so I could easily pick up the child and remove him or her from the home. But instead, I just leave the room, and let the infant burn alive.

Now, with that story in mind, what would you say of me? That I am a good man for allowing the child to burn alive? Outside, I hear the screams of agony of the infant after I left the house, but I can reflect that I have acted EXACTLY like God. God, too, did nothing to stop the infant from burning alive in agony.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:08 pm
@Nitish,
Amperage wrote:

when I say we made the decision I'm talking about our spiritual selves. The us that(IMO) will exist after we leave this body(die) and perhaps(and IMO did) existed before we were born. Now of course the problem arises well if the "we" made the decision before we were even born, whats the point of coming to earth or being born, why not just divvy things up right then and there? My only answer is that I believe it must have something to do with coming to a knowing of God or a point of discovery in some way. Or perhaps there are joys that can be experienced through "life as we know it" that cannot be experienced any other way.


You believe I, through my "spiritual self", made a decision before I was born?

Pyrrho wrote:

If you can stop some evil from occurring, without any harm to yourself or others, and you do not, then that is evil.


But does that make me evil, or just my inaction evil? On the same note, how many evil acts does it take before I become evil? Even if I saved the child, would I, then, be good? If I do one good act and one bad act, am I some sort of morally neutral? What if God has done 1,000,000,000,000 good things, but has only done 1,000,000,000 evil things. Is God good or evil?
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:09 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;117012 wrote:
...

I will ask you a similar question that I asked xris: without the blueprints for how something is supposed to be created how can you judge if it is not created perfectly? What you call imperfections may very well be the exact way they were designed.



Which is to say, God purposefully designed the earth to have diseases to cause human suffering, and willfully chose for infants to die horrible deaths from diseases he created. Thus, the God you describe is a sadist.




Amperage;117012 wrote:
and I also stated that while this is true, it may be that case that in heaven, while having free will, no one chooses to do evil.
My contention is that here on earth if everyone chose not to do evil then there would therefore be no evil.
And already explained that IMO only free will beings are capable of evil so hurricanes and earthquakes are neither evil nor good for they have no intent


But God had intent in making them. If I shoot someone with a gun, it surely is a bit of sophistry to say, "I did not kill him, judge, and should be set free, for it was the bullet that killed him". The bullet, of course, had no intentions, but I did in pointing and firing the gun. In the case of disease and earthquakes, these are God's works, and God is to blame for them. Being omniscient, he knew that he would cause massive suffering and agony in making such things, and he chose to do it.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:13 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;117022 wrote:
Yes. (Assuming we are speaking of a being that is both omnipotent and omniscient, of course.)

If you can stop some evil from occurring, without any harm to yourself or others, and you do not, then that is evil. With people, very often they are unable to do so, because they don't know about it (not being omniscient), or lack the strength or power to act adequately (not being omnipotent).

This, by the way, is the ordinary way of thinking of things.

.

If God stopped X from being crippled in an auto accident, then that would prevent X from receiving a certain amount of love and sympathy because of his injury. And the lack of that would make the world less good than a world that had those goods. Of course, the evil of being crippled would be necessary for those goods. So the question would be whether the world would be better is X were not crippled, but, of course, there would not be the resultant goods of love and sympathy; or whether the world is better with the injury and the resultant sympathy and love. These would be, of course, value judgments. On God's part, and on ours.
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:17 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117026 wrote:
...


But does that make me evil, or just my inaction evil? On the same note, how many evil acts does it take before I become evil? Even if I saved the child, would I, then, be good? If I do one good act and one bad act, am I some sort of morally neutral? What if God has done 1,000,000,000,000 good things, but has only done 1,000,000,000 evil things. Is God good or evil?



It makes you evil. The meaning of "he is evil", is that he does evil things, or fails to do good when he should.

As far as the number of acts is concerned, if you do some good and some evil, then you are neither purely good nor purely evil. For the sake of the current discussion, it does not matter how much evil it takes to start calling a person evil; the moment there is even one evil action (or inaction), we do not have a being of pure goodness, and consequently we are no longer talking about a being that is omnipotent, omniscient, and all good.

Though this is, strictly speaking, off topic, it is not merely the number of evil acts, but the level of evil that matters when we are deciding whether or not to call someone evil. A man who, for most of his life, does good things, but then goes on a killing spree and becomes a mass murderer is ordinarily called "evil".
0 Replies
 
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:20 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;117026 wrote:
You believe I, through my "spiritual self", made a decision before I was born?

well.....yeah. Look at Jesus for a second. He existed before he "broke into the world" and he existed after he left this world.

I guess a lot of what I think hinges on free will being real. It's also extremely hard to justify free will....for me anyways. I guess I'm making the leap that because Jesus existed before his birth and after and because we know we exist now and we know(I should say hope) that we will exist after that perhaps we too existed before. Knowing this, it's not unreasonable for me to think that "I" was doing stuff before I broke into the world just as Jesus was doing stuff before He did. And knowing this it could be possible that all of existence made a 1 time choice just as the angles in heaven did(maybe even at the same time).

I have no evidence of any of this and am more than likely completely wrong, I'm letting you know at least where I'm coming from
0 Replies
 
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:25 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;117028 wrote:
If God stopped X from being crippled in an auto accident, then that would prevent X from receiving a certain amount of love and sympathy because of his injury. And the lack of that would make the world less good than a world that had those goods. Of course, the evil of being crippled would be necessary for those goods. So the question would be whether the world would be better is X were not crippled, but, of course, there would not be the resultant goods of love and sympathy; or whether the world is better with the injury and the resultant sympathy and love. These would be, of course, value judgments. On God's part, and on ours.


There are several things that could be said, but I will focus on one point. Reasoning as you have done, I might decide to go out into the world and break people's kneecaps with a baseball bat, in order to cripple them, so that they may receive sympathy that they would not otherwise receive. So, do you think that I am a good man if I do such things?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:38 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;117033 wrote:
There are several things that could be said, but I will focus on one point. Reasoning as you have done, I might decide to go out into the world and break people's kneecaps with a baseball bat, in order to cripple them, so that they may receive sympathy that they would not otherwise receive. So, do you think that I am a good man if I do such things?


No, since I do not think that the sympathy would compensate for the broken knee caps. But there might be other goods I know nothing about which I would know nothing which might result from the broken keecaps, and about which an onniscient God would know. And those goods might be compensating goods. Of course, this is where faith comes in. And Alexander Pope's, "Whatever is, is right". (Of course, in any case I would not think you were a good man for breaking someone's knee-caps, for neither your motive nor your intention would be to do good).
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:40 pm
@kennethamy,
The bottom line to your argument(as far as I can tell) Pyrrho is that since we have the capacity for evil then God must not be omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent.
And the bottom line to my argument is that there is nothing inherently wrong with having the capacity for something and therefore this has no bearing on God being omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent.
If no one chose to do evil there would be no evil. There would still be accidents and there would still be pain and suffering but those things are not inherently evil
Pyrrho
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:51 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;117040 wrote:
No, since I do not think that the sympathy would compensate for the broken knee caps. But there might be other goods I know nothing about which I would know nothing which might result from the broken keecaps, and about which an onniscient God would know. And those goods might be compensating goods. Of course, this is where faith comes in. And Alexander Pope's, "Whatever is, is right". (Of course, in any case I would not think you were a good man for breaking someone's knee-caps, for neither your motive nor your intention would be to do good).


What if I broke the kneecaps for the sake of the sympathy that would be generated, not for some "sadistic" purpose? And what if I reason as Alexander Pope, and figure that I must not be mistaken if I am able to succeed at the task?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:54 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;117046 wrote:
What if I broke the kneecaps for the sake of the sympathy that would be generated, not for some "sadistic" purpose? And what if I reason as Alexander Pope, and figure that I must not be mistaken if I am able to succeed at the task?


Well what if? We may be all instruments in the hand of God. I have no idea. I might very well think that you were crazy to think as you do.
0 Replies
 
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 03:59 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;117046 wrote:
What if I broke the kneecaps for the sake of the sympathy that would be generated, not for some "sadistic" purpose? And what if I reason as Alexander Pope, and figure that I must not be mistaken if I am able to succeed at the task?
I know this was directed at kennethamy but I would say you would still be mistaken. Something is right because it's right and something is wrong because it's wrong. Now something can be wrong and not be (subjectively evil) but nothing can be right and evil. and what is wrong is objectively evil(meaning an ethically unjustifiable intent or motive) when it pertains to intent or motive.
So in this case while you may have justified in some way that it's OK to brake peoples kneecaps, I would say that anyone objectively viewing the situation would say you "ought" not do that.
biscuithead175
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 04:11 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;117051 wrote:
I know this was directed at kennethamy but I would say you would still be mistaken. Something is right because it's right and something is wrong because it's wrong. Now something can be wrong and not be (subjectively evil) but nothing can be right and evil. and what is wrong is objectively evil(meaning an ethically unjustifiable intent or motive) when it pertains to intent or motive.
So in this case while you may have justified in some way that it's OK to brake peoples kneecaps, I would say that anyone objectively viewing the situation would say you "ought" not do that.


Could you elaborate on how something can't be right and evil Because I dont believe that is always the case. The mere fact that something is evil doesnt mean it cant be right or just for someone or something else. People are often indirectly affected by circumstances that are malevolent for some but beneficial for others.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 Jan, 2010 04:15 pm
@biscuithead175,
biscuithead175;117058 wrote:
Could you elaborate on how something can't be right and evil Because I dont believe that is always the case. The mere fact that something is evil doesnt mean it cant be right or just for someone or something else. People are often indirectly affected by circumstances that are malevolent for some but beneficial for others.


You had better give an example of what you have in mind. It is very hard to tell.
 

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