"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent...

You know...

Seriously...

I don't think any Christian or religious person has any imagination. Do not take that too insultingly, as I will explain...

The apologetic(s) in this thread are trying to make the case that we need the things we perceive as "evil" in some way to help us. Or we need "pain" or "suffering" to appreciate the "good". That is a shallow view to take of God, I think.

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Please explain to me how one "creates" evil. Evil is not a thing. Evil is not a creation. Evil is the absence of something. According to gotquestions.org and I think they said it nicely Evil is no more a creation than a hole in the ground. Holes exist but only when you a remove part of what's already there, in this case dirt. A hole is the absence of dirt from a place.

I would probably change that last sentence to say ....but rather only allow for the absence of Himself, since I will agree that people can do "good" even without God.
All God did was allow people to do something other than what He wanted.

Putting the tree there was meaningless, it was symbolic. I can assure you they did not gain some special new knowledge once they ate from it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

He could have said anything. He could have said don't walk backwards for 50 yards on Tuesdays. The point of the tree only served to give them a way to do something other than what God wanted. At that time I guess you could say they were given the world(minus 1 tree) as incentive to hang out with God yet they chose to do otherwise.

Without some way to do something other than what God wanted, they would have essentially been slaves to Him.

Question: Which is better? Forcing someone to love you by leaving them no other choice or earning that persons love to the point that they no longer want to choose anything else?

Why create Hell, why punish people indefinitely for finite sins?

How is Heaven perfect if you can rebel, how does it have free will?

There are at least two things that can be said in response to that. First, in that case, nothing is evil, and rape and murder and torture, being real things, are inherently good. Do you seriously believe that?

And second, who left the hole, but the creator? If evil is only absence of good, then wouldn't an all good, omnipotent, and omniscient being fill every hole?

So you are saying that the Biblical story is false, or God is a liar:

Genesis 2:






So, you think heaven is worse than the earth? Or are you denying the existence of heaven?

So let me get this straight:

God said "Hold on, f this, I'm tired of being perfect - let's take a vote! Who doesn't want to be perfect, raise your hand!"

And then 2/3rds, or 1/3, or some definite number of "angles" decided to leave, to go to a place absent of any goodness at all?

How the hell did that ever happen? How did God not see that one coming? Wow....wow.

Is it really so clear? Where did it ever say that in the bible? Is this just gossip? If God really, for some reason, let free will get away from his perfect beings in perfect Heaven to where they'd want to rebel and one would become a leader, and then make humans shitty forever - you think he'd figure that out because I just did? If I can see through the bullshit, why can't you, and why can't "God"?

It's just an infinite regression of bullshit to explain religion, the bible, God, angels, etc...etc...etc...

Doesn't the fact that we are biologically driven to propagate our species and survive explain more about what leads to rape, or what leads to Nazism, or Communism than the bible or some made up Sunday school on God?

Doesn't geology, tectonic plates, the environment and climate, the moon, or any number of other things explain natural disasters better than the bible or a preacher?

Everything that we perceive as evil is of our own creation, there is no God to blame, and it can all be fixed or attempted to be fixed with rational thinking - never wishful thinking about some BS daddy figure in space.

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The only way to directly "fill the holes" is to take away free will. God's method is to try and give incentive to not dig the hole in the first place.


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and once again I don't know how Heaven works. I never claimed we didn't have free will in heaven, but perhaps once we have the knowledge of where we are or become more Christ like we will no longer desire to do otherwise....ever. While still maintaining our free will. It will just be that we realize that another option exists but will never want to choose to exercise it.

Revelations 12 I believe. Who says God didn't see it coming? Obviously things are occurring the way they were supposed to and the way God knew they would, however, this does not mean things are occurring the way God desired. Clearly everything can be explained scientifically but that doesn't disprove God in any way.

The Four Laws of Creation

1) You Exist

2) The One is the All. The All are the One.

3) What you put out is what you get back.

4) Change is the only constant, except for the first 3 laws.

then evil is not necessary, and there is no excuse for God allowing it. God could simply have made heaven with people with this understanding of which you write, and bypassed this earthly veil of tears entirely. But since God did not choose to do that, God is the creator of unnecessary evil, and is therefore evil.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either a perfect heaven is impossible, or evil is unnecessary. Take your pick on that, and then let us continue the discussion if you wish to maintain that there is a God that is omnipotent, omniscient, and all good.

And evil is not necessary in the sense that evil ought not occur but still unfortunately. But the existence of evil does not negate the existence of God either. And I have no answer for why God has sent us to earth I can only offer a guess which is that perhaps it is in this arena where we don't know and can't know everything that he wants us to explore and seek Him out.

Well then my pick is that heaven is perfect and either we still maintain free will(though no one chooses to disobey) or we don't have free will.

I thought you stood uneducated on theological questions

and did not have a defined opinion.

It appears both are not as you claimed. Are you actually saying he is incapable, he is a minor god, one step up from Thor.

If evil is not necessary, then God is the creator of unnecessary evil and is therefore evil.

The existence of evil does not prove that there is no god of any kind; it only proves that there is not a god that is all of the following: omnipotent, omniscient, and all good. That is all the argument was ever intended to prove.

You still are hedging your bets rather than picking something definite. If we do not have free will in heaven, then it is better to not have free will, so it is evil of God to give us free will on earth. And if we have free will in a perfect heaven, then the existence of free will does not explain the existence of evil.

As I've stated God did not "create" evil. Evil exists but is not created. Even if I had the ability to create things I would not be able to create a barrel filled with pure evil. Because evil is not a thing.

can we agree that someone could(hypothetically) be all powerful but also good/wise/"all-knowing" enough not to use that power?

If so, can ANY argument be made(see post #81) that would suggest "evil" as being necessary? If the possibility exists then have not we just proven that evil can exist and God could still be omnipotent, omniscient, and all good?

That's because I don't know and can't know. I believe in the notion of free will therefore I suppose I would choose the latter.

So what is free will ? the will to do as god wishes or as he knows we are imperfect to do, in fact, the most stupidest thing possible. I reiterate he cant have expectations of imperfection, can he?

God has no expectations only desire. God does not expect us to be perfect nor is it a requirement for anything. God, however, is perfect and we are made to be perfect through Him and by Him. Not perfect in a physical or mental sense but in a spiritual sense(the only one that really matters).
I would call free will the ability to do choose an option despite any of internal or external situation.

Whether evil is a thing or the absence of a thing is immaterial to the argument. You see, if God made the world, he left the gaps for the evil, and in so doing, is the cause of there being evil. It does not matter whether the evil is the result of God doing something, or failing to do something; with an omnipotent being, all actions are easy.

No. An omniscient (all knowing) being would know how to use the power for good.

In that case, the existence of free will does not explain evil

Desires, desire to do what ?

to invent imperfection and then examine its failures. Spiritually perfection is measured by what? This silly game of reality and an imagined god is really doing my head in. What was his purpose in creating us? OOOh I know when the question gets tooo difficult we can only imagine his purpose.

If free will exists it has nothing to do with your imagined god. Logic deprives god of his existence, he has no authority in reasoning.