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"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent...

 
 
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 06:15 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;118344 wrote:
Again, you are assuming the conclusion and pretending that that settles everything. Assuming the conclusion is begging the question, which is a fallacy. You merely assume that there is a reason for evil, but have done nothing to show that there is a reason for evil.
How am I assuming the conclusion? I'm assuming the hypothesis.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 04:36 am
@Amperage,
Amperage;118315 wrote:
God does not have deviant intentions. God cannot create a contradiction but He still called omnipotent because He can do all things that are possible absolutely. And the only things not possible absolutely are contradictions. You wish to have only the highs and none of the lows without realizing this is not possible absolutely, it is a contradiction. There could be no highs without lows, there would just be flat.

God's job is to create the best world possible and the highs created from the lows (if Leibniz's theory is correct)generates a better world than one with only flat.

This is why your rationale is faulty. You are essentially asking 'why can't God create a contradiction' and holding it against Him while not understanding this is not possible, not because of a lack of anything, but because it is not even feasible as a possible thing
There is no contradiction if we start with perfection. What extreme low do you suffer for the highs ? Your actually telling me the suffering I see children endure is because of a certain HIGH, I might enjoy. There is no logic in your invention, if there is an end purpose let me hear it.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 06:19 pm
@Nitish,
If this was the best possible world, then why do people wish to go to Heaven? How could it be any better, unless the rules change, and we are just worshiping slaves or what have you...
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 07:47 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;118675 wrote:
If this was the best possible world, then why do people wish to go to Heaven? How could it be any better, unless the rules change, and we are just worshiping slaves or what have you...
Well at the moment I can only think only offer 2 possible answers. The first is that this world could in some way be better than heaven.( I reject this notion though. Though it does solve the apparent dilemma) And people are just don't realize this.

or 2

Heaven could be seen as the culmination of this world. What I mean by that is there is a process we are going through before we get to that point. As with other scenarios we've talked about in this thread, if Leibniz theory is correct, it is invalid to imagine a world with something or without something as we have no way of knowing how that will effect anything else. We just hold that Gods job is to create the best possible world. Thereby stating that unless event x unfolded exactly as it did, the world would not be the best possible.
This basically means that since we aren't in Heaven now, it must be assumed that Heaven would not be as good as it will be if not for everything that preceded it and in fact the only way for Heaven to be as good as it will be is because of what preceded it.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 12:39 am
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;118675 wrote:
If this was the best possible world, then why do people wish to go to Heaven? How could it be any better, unless the rules change, and we are just worshiping slaves or what have you...


I think it may be that people here don't realize how terrific it is to be dead.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 03:44 pm
@Nitish,
I am with Voltaire and Candide against Dr. Pangloss, the notion that this is the best of all possible worlds is ludicrous. That idea should have died in ancient times but certainly died in WWI and with the death camps in WWII. Except as an exercise in abstract logic to the traditional problem of evil the Leibniz solution carries no weight and no purchase in the popular mind.
To question the traditional medieval scholastic assertion about God as omnipotent and omniscient is a far better theological solution.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 04:16 pm
@prothero,
prothero;118868 wrote:
I am with Voltaire and Candide against Dr. Pangloss, the notion that this is the best of all possible worlds is ludicrous. That idea should have died in ancient times but certainly died in WWI and with the death camps in WWII. Except as an exercise in abstract logic to the traditional problem of evil the Leibniz solution carries no weight and no purchase in the popular mind.
To question the traditional medieval scholastic assertion about God as omnipotent and omniscient is a far better theological solution.


But I am with Voltaire and Candide too. But we have to distinguish the logical problem of freedom of the will, from the metaphysical problem of freedom of the will. The logical problem is whether the existence of an all good and all powerful God is logically consistent with the existence of evil in the world. And, given certain assumptions (like that God cannot violated the laws of logic) Leibniz has, I think, shown a way out of this problem. He has shown it is logically possible for there to be such a God and for evil to exist. But then, there is the metaphysical problem of freedom of the will. Namely, forgetting that it is logically possible for God and evil to exist together, is it true or even plausible that this is the best of all possible worlds, and that all the evil in this world is, in fact, necessary for the amount of good in the world, and, furthermore, the good so compensates for the evil, that this amount of good could not be accomplished without this amount of evil? And other possible combination of good and evil would be a less good world than the one we have now? And this, of course, is a different proposition from the logical one. It is hard to swallow that this is the best of all possible worlds, indeed. And Leibniz knew that too, since he thought that after the logical problem had been dealt with, to believe it was true that this is (in fact) the best of all possible worlds would be a matter of faith, and not of reason. He was able (he thought) to show that is might be true that this is the best of all possible worlds, but not that this is actually the best of all possible worlds. Candide is, of course, a lampoon, not of Leibniz so much as his followers (like Pangloss) who were not so bright, and did not make the essential distinction between whether it is possible for this to be the best of alll possible worlds, and whether this is, in fact, the best of all possible worlds. And, to tell the truth, it may very well be that Voltaire himself was not very clear about the distinction, nor was he (I think) particularly concerned about it. He had other fish to fry. Candide is a polemic, not a work of philosophy. Voltaire makes it seem as if the issue is whether there could be a world with no evil in it. Voltaire say, "of course there could be, so if there is an all powerful, all good God, why did he not make such a world?" End of story. But the issue is not whether God could have made a world without evil in it. Of course He could have. The real issue is whether such a world would have been as good as a world with evil in it, and, in particular as good as the actual world. So, Candide is a satire, a parody. It is not a subtle philosophical criticism of Leibniz.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 10:52 pm
@Nitish,
God can do anything.....that is the meaning of omnipotence.

Therefore God could have made a world in good ways, without evil. You make it sound like there are certain rules God cannot break - but he makes the rules.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 10:56 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;119831 wrote:
God can do anything.....that is the meaning of omnipotence.

Therefore God could have made a world in good ways, without evil. You make it sound like there are certain rules God cannot break - but he makes the rules.
God cannot create a contradiction...He can't make something that is 100% white and also 100% black....He can't make a square circle. He can't make highs without lows. God is still omnipotent because not being able to create contradictions is not possible
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 10:59 pm
@Nitish,
He invented contradictions, percent, white, black, colors, squares, circles, genders, sentences, contractions, verbs, periods, etc...etc...etc...

God could have done anything he wanted, he didn't have to allow "contradictions" into the rules either.

Embrace the power to do anything you want, imagine it, having cake and eating it, too - and that's God, IMHO.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:02 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;119837 wrote:
He invented contradictions, percent, white, black, colors, squares, circles, genders, sentences, contractions, verbs, periods, etc...etc...etc...

God could have done anything he wanted, he didn't have to allow "contradictions" into the rules either.

Embrace the power to do anything you want, imagine it, having cake and eating it, too - and that's God, IMHO.
God can do anything that is possible absolutely. However some things are absolutely impossible.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:05 pm
@Nitish,
God, if possible, which in this discussion is, determines what else is or is not possible. Contradictions, for example, were installed by God. He did not have to install the contradiction software into the Matrix.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:06 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;119840 wrote:
God, if possible, which in this discussion is, determines what else is or is not possible. Contradictions, for example, were installed by God. He did not have to install the contradiction software into the Matrix.
Once He decided to create something material there became limits

I should say that with real things, there are some things that cannot be done. So God could do anything that could be done
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:09 pm
@Nitish,
According to God, ya. He is the one who created the word create, and the action of it, and the thought of it, and thinking, and material, and limits, etc...

Who are we to tell God what and what isn't possible if said God actually exists? If said God had human like social humor, he would laugh at all of us - if he was a he, of course.

I will be sure to tell God, if I meet him, that my buddy amperage said he couldn't do something Wink.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:10 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;119845 wrote:
According to God, ya. He is the one who created the word create, and the action of it, and the thought of it, and thinking, and material, and limits, etc...

Who are we to tell God what and what isn't possible if said God actually exists? If said God had human like social humor, he would laugh at all of us - if he was a he, of course.

I will be sure to tell God, if I meet him, that my buddy amperage said he couldn't do something Wink.
It's inaccurate to say He can't do something....just that some things cannot be done. He can do anything that can be done. There's a difference
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:11 pm
@Nitish,
Doesn't God decide what can and cannot be done? We went over this, lol.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:13 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;119849 wrote:
Doesn't God decide what can and cannot be done? We went over this, lol.
God is still bound by logical possibility...He can't make 5 = 4.


Ok I've completely forgot what your question was at this point
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:18 pm
@Nitish,
Well, I will try to wrap it up.

God could make a good world without evil. Because God determines all rules, all logic, and thus what is and what is not contradictions. You say that God subscribes to limits when in the material world.

But God existed before the material world, and by your own belief, is said creator. And being omnipotent, outside the material world, you are limitless - and therefore could have created said material world without "contradictions" like good without evil.

And as a Christian, if any here are, how else do you explain Heaven?

If Heaven is perfection, and is to be a reward, to be attained, a goal, and where you live eternally - it has to be better than this world. And somehow, it includes any good thing you want and no evil - thus perfection.
Amperage
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:23 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;119853 wrote:
Well, I will try to wrap it up.

God could make a good world without evil. Because God determines all rules, all logic, and thus what is and what is not contradictions. You say that God subscribes to limits when in the material world.

But God existed before the material world, and by your own belief, is said creator. And being omnipotent, outside the material world, you are limitless - and therefore could have created said material world without "contradictions" like good without evil.

And as a Christian, if any here are, how else do you explain Heaven?

If Heaven is perfection, and is to be a reward, to be attained, a goal, and where you live eternally - it has to be better than this world. And somehow, it includes any good thing you want and no evil - thus perfection.
so you hold it against God because He can't create a contradiction?

As far as Heaven is concerned I honestly don't know the only answer I can give is this:
Heaven could be seen as the culmination of this world. What I mean by that is there is a process we are going through before we get to that point. As with other scenarios we've talked about in this thread, if Leibniz theory is correct, it is invalid to imagine a world with something or without something as we have no way of knowing how that will effect anything else. We just hold that Gods job is to create the best possible world. Thereby stating that unless event x unfolded exactly as it did, the world would not be the best possible.
This basically means that since we aren't in Heaven now, it must be assumed that Heaven would not be as good as it will be if not for everything that preceded it and in fact the only way for Heaven to be as good as it will be is because of what preceded it.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:25 pm
@Nitish,
Well we appreciate the good because the evil - but when we go to Heaven, if we did, there'd be no allowing evil thoughts or memories or recollections. So - how would we "appreciate" our good character that awarded us our entrance in the first place? This is, of course, secondary to the free will in Heaven, or lack there of, argument.
 

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